Why Swing / JavaFX is not a platform (yet)

For some reason the Swing engineers are not interested in solving the problem with layout managers. The sad fact is even that JavaFX will just wrap the old very limited layout managers. I thought that when they are in fact creating a new API, why not solve this and be done with it?

I had a session at JavaOne about MiG layout and got a lot of positive feedback. Adding MiG layout to the platform is climbing fast on the Top 25 Request for Enhancement list at Sun (http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6530906). That RFE system is the only way we have to put preassure on Sun and they constantly tell us to "file a RFE". The problem is only that they still just choose the RFEs they like and not the RFEs people like, or so it seems.

The normal answer I get from Sun people is that "Well, it is an excellent Layout Manager, but wouldn't it be better to have it outside the JDK so that users can download it?". The problem is that only about 1% (guesimated) actually will go out on the net and find a replacement, so that argument really doesn't matter.

If users complain about Layout Managers being crap in Swing, then that is a fact. Sun might think that the commenters are at fault for thinking so but that does not change the fact that they DO think so. And developers outside Sun are not more stupid. Infact they are probably using the APIs more than Sun developers, which are creating them.

Everything (almost) developers complain about has after a while ended up being fixed and I salute Sun for this. The problem is that it takes way too long and they resist furiously until they finally understand.

If there is a problem it should be solved IMO. The only way to know what is wrong is listening to the users, and I mean actually listening. Hearing what we say and disregard it will only increase tention. 

Btw, the ugly fonts will finally be solved. Java 6u10 has native font rendering... After 7 years of complaining it finally paid off...

As of Java 6, where it defaults to anti-aliased fonts (finally!), I've had zero problems with fonts in Java, whether running on Windows or Linux.

 That said, it wouldn't hurt for Java to have it's own rich set of fonts (that are anti-aliased, of course).

Also, the ongoing improvement of layout managers is a good thing.  But I do quite like Matisse.  Except in rare cases, it's the way to go.  It's as easy as pie to get a great looking interface that has stuff lined up how you want them.

> any changes in the FCS of Apple's Java6?

It's been released a couple of weeks ago. Only for Intel and 64-bit  only, unfortunately.

I'm not necessarily opposed to native font rendering (although over the long term I would expect Java font rendering to be a better way to go), but any kind of font rendering in Java should look almost exactly identical on any two platforms (which means Java must include a full suite of fonts like Windows does) and absolutely must result in precisely the same bounding box for a given piece of text.  

There are other reasons to use layout managers to be sure (for example, localization, pluggable look and feel or stretchable dialogs), but for an overwhelming number of applications, they simply are not necessary if the sizes of components can be fixed by a designer. And fixed size components are not reliably possible without fixed sized text.

Although swing has greater generality in terms of look and feel, I think many applications would be better written in a single, fixed, simple style (like the metal look and feel, only slicker). The complexity created by pluggable look and feel is really not worth it much of the time. What's more, the market for Java FX is going to be online applets more than desktop applications, and that audience is really only going to be interested in precise designs.

I would not suggest that layout managers are undesirable or that they have not improved, but they have never been a good default for the vast majority of users and particularly designers, who often have simple fixed problems and want a precise look and feel. Even with the new group layout and Matisse, I still finding layout managers pretty frustrating and sloppy and they make input from professional designers much more difficult. If there are easier options on other platforms, users will choose them.

I'm surprised about that statement. In layout courses I found that the contrary is the case. Every Java developer I met could work with DLU.

Logical pixels work quite well on a single platform with a single main control font. Logical pixels suck, if you change platforms or move over to different fonts. MS provides these nasty tables for folks that move layouts over from Tahoma to Segoe UI. That's basically what you face if you deploy an app on multiple platforms - which is at the core of many Java UIs.

If someone wanted to they could use Null Layout. Then package up some free fonts (like Bitstream) with the program and force the font sizes in the Look and Feel. Given that type of environment I'm sure one can build a wonderfully designed interface for one specific set of circumstances. The problem is that users do not fit into one set of circumstances. Internationalization, accessibility for the disabled, high DPI screens, and even resizeable windows are all things that you can't use exact pixel placement to design for. We all know what people did before layout managers. They hard coded pixel locations and made windows that don't resize. So now we are left with a task that requires a balance of programming skills and design skills. Not everyone has both.

Maybe I'm wrong. There are plenty of web sites that have hard coded pixel sizes. There are plenty that are not internationalized or respond poorly to larger fonts. Why should Java be any different? Is there any platform that "gets is right" that we could learn from?

Have a look at SWT/JFace layout managers that Eclipse RCP uses. It is commonly admitted that Eclipse looks great. There are some ports of SWT's layout managers to Swing, especially FormLayout.

Building forms with fixed-position was something Visual Basic and Borland Delphi were based on. But up until now even MS is dropping that approach I guess.

The reason to use layout managers is not only portability, but more importantly use of custom fonts. Windows or Linux user may use a desktop theme which is based on, say, big fonts, or a disabled person might want use such fonts to ease work with his PC. Just image a font beight slightly larger than deafult buttons height! "Cancel" could not fit within a button!