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What is Your Greatest Concern for Java?

12.03.2009
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"This is HOUSTON...." -- Here is a collection of voices and quotes from DEVOXX.....

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed below in this blog are of those of the respondents; I am simply reporting what I have observed at DEVOXX.

 

So, WHAT was the question I was asking people at DEVOXX? Here it is:

What is your greatest concern for Java?

 


  1. R09_0002(MP3) -- Andrei Yuchenko -- Hague/Amsterdam Netherlands -- Java Developer
    "...My greatest concern is the independence of the [Java] Language...in the past, it has enjoyed a certain amount of freedom...and companies who counted on the Java Platform could rely that it would continue to evolve in a independent fashion... Oracle is known for its commercial take on things, so really I am afraid that this freedom may evaporate..." --Andrei Yuchenko

  2. R09_0003 -- Lior Bornshtain -- Netherlands/orig from Israel -- Chief Java Architect -- AllShare Banking Solutions
    "...I do really trust that good things will continue with the OpenJDK, regardless of which company is behind it...More of a concern to me is Sun's other products like GlassFish, OpenESB...Hmm...maybe actually the runtime itself...What would happen if Oracle wants to merge it with JRockit..so this is currently the main worries for me... "[Lior is an active GlassFish User and is trying to gain GF adoption at his company] --Lior Bornshtain

  3. R09_0004 -- Berto Mendonca -- living in Belgium/orig from Forteleza Brazil -- CEJUG.org co-leader & Doctoral student
    "...My viewpoint is as a community leader in Caere, Forteleza - Brazil cejug.org...There are so many technologies [i.e. Ruby, Scala, Groovy, etc] that are trying to bring productivity [to the Java Developer community]...and our great concern there is that those technologies are taking people from our community, because we love Java, of course, but it's all about productivity, cost, and what people adopt [as their core skills/technology]...so my biggest concern is how Java can be more productive for developers...it all comes from the opinion of the community...we want to keep Java as a focus, develop it, develop the community, but we should show to them [Java Developers] this is good for them, their job, to make money, to be productive..so I hope the current development team continues to improve Java, make it faster...more productive " --Berto Mendonca

  4. R09_0005 -- Cadi Zouheir -- Paris, France -- Paris JUG co-lead & senior software architect
    "...The question of what happens after the merger between Oracle and Sun...I don't know what the future will be of the [Java] Language and the Platform...What will be the commitment of the company after this merger...I don't know if it will be the same commitment by Oracle to the community after this merger...to make the [Java] language and its community dynamic and active..." --Cadi Zouheir

  5. R09_0007 -- David DeWalle -- Paris, France -- Paris JUG co-lead -- Java Developer/Architect
    "...I love the contact with the [Java] code...I write web clients... so I have a lot of concerns, because I am passionate about Java...My first love is with graphical interfaces, so with Java it is really fun...Java evolved a lot in regards to the back-end [enterprise Java], so as someone who works with the front end [rich clients, GUIs].. SWING has not evolved, really. Personally, I think that was a mistake...so I would like to see more advancement of SWING..When you see what will come with Java 7, you realize that SWING is still late...will there be any additional SWING Specification in Java 7? ..." --David DeWalle

  6. R09_0008 -- Christophe Jollivet -- Tours France; co-lead Tours JUG www.toursjug.org; contributing technical writer for developpez.com (all-French Java Portal); Java Developer
    "...My greatest concern is for the Community around Java, because we have a lot of people who drive the community...people with 'Shining Eyes' when they speak of Java...So sometimes we [Java Community] need support, which Sun did by hiring community people [The Sun technology outreach personnel and evangelist(s) to interact with us - the community]..and I'm afraid that this isn't the way of thinking for Oracle..." --Christophe Jollivet

  7. R09_0009 -- Mathieu Ancelin -- Poitou-Charentes, France; co-lead www.poitocharentesjug.org -- Junior Java Developer + involved in OpenSource Community
    "...My greatest concern for Java is related to the Oracle-Sun merger...it is about the new features of the [Java] Language... I don't know if Oracle would support new features in the [Java] language...don't know if they would support the community for a long time....concern that we won't be able to do anything new with Java in the OpenSource community...I would like to see an OpenSource commitment to Java from Oracle...." --Mathieu Ancelin

  8. R09_0010 -- Sven Reimers -- Germany -- Senior Systems Engineer/Java Architect ND Satcom doing Rich Client Apps also NetBeans DreamTeam member
    "...Given the fact that my work is based on the NetBeans Platform...not sure what will happen to the NetBeans Platform in the merger with Oracle...there is still no communication..We are always trying to figure out with this is a platform that will really be supported and driven from Sun or Oracle...there is a lot of applications based on it [NetBeans] ...it will be interesting to get a bit more information about this, since we [ND SatCom] invested heavily in this...[bonus question--How do you use Java and Oracle at ND SatCom?] ....We have a Java rich-client NetBeans server-based application...and we are using Oracle as our primary database...we have a large customer and we ship about 200 installations of Oracle along with our product...." --Sven Reimers

  9. R09_0011 -- Peter Pilgrim -- London, UK -- Java Architect w/ Investment Banking firm in London, Java Champion, JUG Leader London JAVAWUG
    "...My greatest concern for Java right now is perhaps that it could fragment into various pieces...with the developers not really caring who provides Java... I am hopeful that it won't happen...obviously the transition from Sun to Oracle will be successful...and the Java Virtual Machine will continue to be the main platform out there that attracts people who want...would like open-source software and would like to develop software for any machine [PC, Linux, Apple etc] out there in the world...." --Peter Pilgrim

  10. R09_0012 -- Florian Vogler -- Lake Constance, Germany -- Java Designer for Ground based Satellite Systems at ND Satcom
    "...Difficult to answer...in my opinion, I'm a little bit confused about the information [out there]...everything is a bit hidden...I don't know what is going on in Oracle or what will go on with Sun in the future...I think most people think of Java and think of Sun... it [the names] belongs to each other... and I don't know how open Java will be in the future...and in my company [ND SatCom] we work a lot with NetBeans and I don't know how it will be supported in the future... there are no answers no information being made available to us....what discussions are going on...that's the problem no information..." --Florian Vogler

  11. R09_0015 -- Frank Greco -- NY, NY USA -- Sr. Architect; Dir. of Technology for Kaziing.org, Java Champion; Founder/Leader of NYJAVASIG; USA's 1st + Largest JUG
    "...My biggest concern is with the current Oracle/Sun acquisition...I know Oracle is trying to do their best to take Java and Sun's technologies and do something constructive with them, but as a Java developer and as a lead for the New Java Special Interest Group (NYJAVASIG) we are just concerned that Oracle will not keep a lot of the Open Source philosophy, feeling, and culture that's been a mainstay of the Java Community under Sun's direction..." --Frank Greco

  12. R09_0016 -- Stephan Janssen -- Belgium -- Sr. Software Developer; Founder of Belgian JUG; DEVOXX conference organizer; Day Job: founder/owner parleys.com an e-learning platform
    "...So for me, for Java, as a conference organizer for DEVOXX, it takes place nicely 6 months away from JavaOne, so what is nice is that we have a lead of 6 months for announcements [about Java] for the European Java developers, so just a few hours ago [at the DEVOXX conference] Mark Reinhold announced that we will have simple closures in JDK7, and he announce this at DEVOXX...So we have two points in time: at JavaOne and at DEVOXX where we can have nice announcements [about Java]...So my concern is what is going to happen to JavaOne? And let's say there are different scenarios where JavaOne stays in June, then great! But, as you know, there is no call for papers yet [for JavaOne]..... but let's say, worst case scenario for us, if Sun-Oracle decides to put JavaOne in front of say Oracle OpenWorld in October, then that would be like 3-4 weeks away from DEVOXX that would hurt us and it would hurt the Java Community, because the two conferences would be way too close to each other.... all the announcements would happen at JavaOne...and we wouldn't have any mobilization period to find speakers, to get topics, because it would almost be a replica of the JavaOne conference...and if I am not in the loop as the organizer for DEVOXX...it would be really difficult. So that's my biggest concern for Java..." --Stephan Janssen

  13. R09_0018 -- Peter Van de Voorde -- Belgium -- Sr Software Engineer in Java with RealDolmen.com in Huizingen
    "...At the moment, my greatest concern is for the Java User Groups (JUGs); what is going to happen with it? How is it going to be supported? How is Oracle going to handle it? Because Oracle User Groups are totally different and organized [differently than Java User Groups] and Yeah, I am a member of the Belgian JUG (BeJUG) steering committee and we're a little bit worried about it...but we'll see..." --Peter Van de Voorde

  14. R09_0019 -- Xavier Hanin (slightly garbled) -- Bordeaux, France -- member of the Bordeaux JUG, Java Developer first, also Java Architect
    "...I think my greatest concern is about the Java Language itself, I am currently exploring ways to use different languages on the Java Virtual Machine (JVM) itself, because I really like the JVM itself, and I currently exploring different languages like Scala, Groovy, and so on..." --Xavier Hanin

  15. R09_0021 -- Antonio Goncalves -- Paris, France -- Sr. Java Developer, Java Architect; Java Champion; co-lead Paris JUG; JCP Expert Group mbr; book author; DEVOXX presenter
    "...Well, I have plenty of concerns about Java...I think the greatest concerns I have is about the Java Community Process (JCP)...it is not clear where the JCP is going...the JCP has improved a lot [the past few years]...the JCP was opening up, there were more JSRs being opened, there was a revival of open source reference implementations...when you talk about Open Source, you also talk about the community behind it...the JCP was opening up, being more community-driven...open-source driven...more public mailing lists...the JCP was just about on the right path, now my concern is Yeah, now what is going to happen to the JCP... for me, I think the best thing is to have an independent organization like W3c, or Oasis or something like that... maybe that could be the best that could happen to the JCP... And so, when you see what is happening with JDK7 which doesn't have any Java SE 7 which means no specifications at all, so there are people working on the next version of the JDK, but there is no specification [as coordinated by the JCP process] it has been a bit confusion about the JCP. What is it's role? What should it be?... Where should it start? ... Where should it stop?..." --Antonio Goncalves

  16. R09_0022 -- Samuel Mellert -- Karlsruhe, Germany -- Software Developer for IT hosting company in Karlsruhe; Co-JUG leader Karlsruhe JUG
    "...Well, with the merger with Oracle, the Java Community Process is not going as it was.... from the community to the top, unlike at Oracle where it is from the top...down.... therefore there are some issues that were lost in the process...Another concern [his opinion], is that Java isn't that big of a deal for Oracle...because they are in the database space...I think there are trying to use mySQL to sell Oracle databases and Java is just a side-game for them..." --Samuel Mellert

  17. R09_0023 -- These are the Introductions of the JUG leaders who attended the JUG BOF on Wed Nov 18th, 2009

    R09_0024 ***THIS IS THE RECORDING OF JAMES GOSLING Q & A Session at the JUG BOF
    James Gosling mentioned that his concern was that Java would turn into the next COBOL...time-marks on my previous blog entry

  18. R09_0025-- Bert Ertman -- The Netherlands -- Technology Manager for the IT Consulting Co. InfoSys; JUG Leader Dutch Java User Group nljug.org
    "...My greatest concern for Java is that in coming few months after the merger goes through... that something awkward happens that cause Java to be forked, one of the other major companies comes in says we're gonna hold it [Java] here like IBM or SAP...and they say we go to Apache Harmony and become another Java and become another COBOL...or another Corba for that matter..." --Bert Ertman

  19. R09_0026 -- "JUGGY" (the JUG mascot) -- Island of Java, Indonesia (after all he is a "Java" Finch) -- JUG Mascot on java.net
    "...My greatest concern for Java is that Duke disappears...I want Duke to be amongst us [Java Developers] forever...Duke, We Love You!..." --JUGGY the Java Finch
    [Duke is the Java Mascot, largely created by James Gosling]

  20. R09_0027 -- "Bert" -- the Netherlands -- Delivery Manager for Atos Origin (Dutch IT integrator/ Java consulting); nljug.org corporate sponsor and a corporate member
    "...My greatest concern for Java right now is that it stands still while we wait for this merger...nothing is happening... I hope that Oracle will support the Java User Groups as much as Sun has...." --Bert from Atos Origin

  21. R09_0028 -- Darko Palic -- Stuttgart, Germany -- Java Enterprise Architect/developer; Java User Group Stuttgart Leader
    "...So since Oracle is buying Sun, it is completely unclear what will happen in the future....which technologies survive, what will be the next technology for UI [User interface], Will SWING Survive? Will JavaFX survive? ..." --Valko Pavlich

  22. R09_0029 -- Thomas Kruse from Muenster, Germany -- Java Developer and Consultant for telephony/communications sector; JUG Leader of the Muenster JUG
    "...So since Oracle is buying Sun, it is completely unclear what will happen in the future....which technologies survive, what will be the next technology for UI [User interface], Will SWING Survive? Will JavaFX survive? ..." --Thomas from Muenster Germany

  23. R09_0030 -- Gerrit Grunwald -- Dortmund, Germany -- Java Applications Scientist with Raith GmbH www.raith.com a semiconductor lithography and navigation solutions co. Muenster JUG
    "...My biggest concern is for the NetBeans Platform, I hope that it will survive and will provide an alternative IDE for developers....and of course JavaOne? [will there be another JavaOne] --Gerrit Grunwald

  24. R09_0032 -- Niels Herremoeg -- Denmark -- Independent Java EE Consultant and Architecture; JavaGruppen (Danish JUG) Leader
    "...So my greatest concern is that the Sun-Oracle merger will get bogged down in legal details and that will hamper the development of Java and allow competitors to spread fear and doubt about the future of Java as a platform...." --Niels Herremoeg

  25. R09_0033 -- Nicolas Martignole -- Paris, France -- Well known and productive "French Bloggeur"; Java Developer, Paris JUG member
    "...So I was at the James Gosling presentation [JUG BOF]...and I think what we have to learn from the feedback from the community, the [Java] language is evolving and what we said [in the JUG BOF] is that we will be 'COBOL' guys and so my biggest concern is that..are we aware that we are getting older and we have to keep in touch with these new languages [ie Scala, Groovy, etc].. I was really impressed with what James Gosling said about the Scala perspective [the there could be an ease of use issue, since not everybody understands how complicated Scala is] and the groovy language, and I think as a Java developer we have to stay in touch with what is going on in the community...and maybe we should switch our brain from the Java language side to the Java Platform view...so are we able to move to the next step..." --Nicolas Martignole

  26. R09_0034 -- Ludovic Hochet -- Tours, France -- Java Developer/Architect; Tours JUG member
    "...So my greatest concern for Java is that it is stagnating...and really when see things like Groovy, Jruby, and Scala they get a lot of attention; those languages seem to be evolving whereas Java seems to be staying as it is... --Ludovic Hochet

  27. R09_0035 -- Stephen Colebourne -- London, UK -- Java Developer for a travel e-commerce website; Java Champion
    "...My concern really is the big issue that's been in the room for the last (2 1/2) years, where Sun Microsystems deliberately chose not give a license to Apache for their version of Java -- Apache Harmony...There's quite a lot of background issues and political sides to the debate, but the reality is in terms what it actually means to developers, is that at present, unless something changes, there won't be a Java 7, there will only be an JDK7... there will only be Java from ONE source...you wouldn't have for example JRocket, because there will be no way to define what specification JRocket will have to meet...and similar things like that... it seems like a minor esoteric legal issue, but it isn't... it's really about big politics and big money...and that's something that has seized up the entire JCP process for (2 1/2) years... so we would quite like to get it sorted please..." --Stephen Colebourne

  28. R09_0037 -- Lucio Benfante -- Padova, Italy -- Java Consultant, ; JavaDay conference co-organizer; Java Champion, Java OpenSource Developer -several projects, including "JUG-Events" on java.net and "Parancoe"
    "...At present, I think [my concern is about Java's simplicity] it is about simplicity...building a Java system is too complex...so I am a big fan of the Spring Framework...I think it is the most simple method for building complex applications in the Java eco-system...I think it should be easier to choose a technology and use in your [software] application..." --Lucio Benfante

  29. R09_0038 -- MORE from Lucio Benfante about Oracle acquisition and NetBeans RCP...and support for NetBeans Platform.
    "...I have a big concern about the Oracle acquisition...I'm afraid about the NetBeans Platform (RCP)...I think Oracle is missing a big point about the NetBeans Platform...Oracle is obviously in competition with IBM...IBM has Eclipse RCP...the only alternative at present is the NetBeans RCP as a platform...Spring has started to develop its own RCP platform which is a good point for Oracle not to dismiss the NetBeans Platform which is already working...it is a value that already intrinsically exists in the NetBeans Community..." --Lucio Benfante

  30. R09_0040 -- Kevin Nilsson -- Silicon Valley area, CA, USA -- Java ME Developer for eTrade.com, Co-Leader Silicon Valley Web User Group (SVWUG), DEVOXX speaker on CometD
    "...So for me...two years ago at JavaOne, I attended a talk about Servlets 3, and I was very excited by everything I saw...the web fragments...being able to get rid of the web xml...all of these exciting new features...but, then again JavaOne...I saw the same talk...and now at DEVOXX I see the same talk again...here we are a year and half later and we still don't have it finalized...we still don't have Servlets 3 in the Virtual Machine or release anywhere...there is a preview version in GlassFish...but it is not finalize...not stable...for me this is a really big concern for Java.. I feel if we can't move faster, then we're going to become the next COBOL...we need to move the language faster to keep Java strong..." --Kevin Nilsson

  31. R09_0041 -- Stephan Epardeaux -- Nice, France -- Java Architect in Enterprise Development; Co-Leader Riviera JUG
    "...So my greatest concern for Java is the backwards compatibility, so we saw new features that were introduced in Java 5, we see new features that want to be introduced in Java 7; it seems like backwards compatibility is holding us [developers] back in terms of what we can do and cannot do...so it looks like we are very limited with changes we can put into Java with regards to backwards compatibility...so I wonder if there is not a good time in the near future to break backwards compatibility..." [James Gosling addresses this in MP3 #24 from the JUG BOF in the 25min 00 sec - 32min 00 sec segment of that MP3] --Stephan Epardeaux

  32. R09_0042 -- Michael Van Riper -- Silicon Valley area, CA, USA -- Java Developer and Chief Web Technologist at Krillion.com; Java Champion, Co-Leader SVWUG
    "...So I have a couple...but my short-term concern is JavaOne?...so we would probably closing soon the call for papers...and I know with the impending deal with Oracle...that nothing is really being done long-term...seems like we are running out of time to have a JavaOne...whether Oracle was for it or not...because of this whole merger mess, so I am really concerned that if this isn't settled soon then there won't be an option to have JavaOne...in the timeframe that it is supposed to be [May-June 2010]..." --Michael Van Riper

  33. R09_0043 -- "Luchan" -- Romania -- Java Developer for international betting/gaming website; Transylvania JUG member
    "...Oracle bought the Java... What will happen to Java in the future..." --Luchan from Transylvania JUG

  34. R09_0044 -- Kirk Pepperdine -- Hungary/orig from Canada -- Java Performance Tuning Consultant/Specialist/Trainer; Java Champion; DEVOXX Speaker
    "...My greatest concern for Java is really to do more with the Community that Sun has managed to build around Java....every aspect of Java...and we've developed a level of trust with Sun and my concern is with the acquisition with Oracle... I do hope they [Oracle] will maintain the same level of community involvement..." --Kirk Pepperdine

  35. R09_0045 -- "Don" from DEVOXX staff & London, UK -- Java specialist working for a company who customizes confluence and specialized wikis for use in the enterprise/social collaboration websites; also member of DEVOXX technical/systems staff --
    "...So we've two areas that have been growing, Java the Language and Java the Platform...Java Platform is becoming really standardized, but we're getting big fragmentation inside of Java the Language...and that has dissipated somewhat with things like JRuby coming through...especially Scala...a lot of areas pulling us in different directions...and we are now being distracted by what may or may not be in JDK 7... everyone seems to be focusing on the fragmentation of these languages...concerned about another branch(s) of Java..." --Don from the DEVOXX Staff

  36. R09_0046 -- Bill Venners -- California, USA -- Founder/Editor of the Artima Developer Website(LEARN, THINK, IMAGINE); Scala Book Author; Java Champion, DEVOXX presenter
    "...I'd say that there's uncertainty with the Oracle/Sun acquisition...and what's gonna happen...I'm not sure I am concerned...just concerned that something will happen that we [as developers] won't like...but, I think things will be fine..." --Bill Venners

  37. R09_0047 -- Anton "Toni" Epple -- Munich, Germany -- Consultant and Trainer for the NetBeans platform, NetBeans DreamTeam Member
    "...I'm a leader of the Java.net Tools Community together with Fabiane and Daniel Lopez... My concern is about Java and the openness of Java is right now a little bit insecure...so people are asking themselves: Will Java stay as open as it is? Will it be more like closed-sourced? What is the future of other projects like OpenJDK....right now people are considering how they should proceed with Java..." --Toni Epple

  38. R09_0048 -- Mattias Karlsson -- Stockholm, Sweden -- Java Developer/Architect with Ciber a financial services software integrator; Java Champion; JUG Leader of JavaForum-Swedish JUG; Conference organizer for JFokus
    "...So for Java the language, [concerned about] the diversity at the moment...the JCP... But, as a JUG Leader and a conference organizer...earlier we got very good support from Sun, they helped the JUG and they were always very supportive of the conferences...They [Sun] isn't doing that anymore or as much...so the deal with Oracle has really affected this...we'll just have to wait and see what happens....There's a big concern that we don't get the same support from Sun at the moment...www.JFOKUS.se is the conference site..." --Mattias Karlsson

  39. R09_0049 -- Vincent Brabant -- Brussels, Belgium -- Java Developer; former Java Champion & Netbeans DreamTeam member; contributing writer to www.developpez.com (All-French Java Portal)
    "...Hi I am living in Brussels...and my greatest concern for Java is I would like to see continued development on the Java Virtual Machine and the HotSpot...they are quite powerful and enable me to write code that is quite powerful..."--Vincent Brabant
  40. Lastly, the Java Posse commented to my Question. My "super-stealthy" JUG leader (Kevin Nilsson) ask them the question during their BOF Q & A at DEVOXX... (actually Dick Wall and Carl Quinn had a heads-up on the question before...)
    Java Posse Podcast #287 LIVE from DEVOXX on Parleys.com: http://beta.parleys.com/#st=5&id=1490&sl=34
    skip to the 00:47:21 time mark in the "Q & A" session


  41. carl Carl Quinn: "...My biggest worry, and hopefully it will be unfounded, is that the leadership of Java is a bit fuzzy right now... JCP seems a bit stalled...Sun is on hold waiting to see what Oracle is going to do...tough time...I think if we can weather through this and Oracle steps in and resolves issues with the JCP...that would be awesome..."

     


  42. tor Tor Norbye: [Dick to Tor..."you can assume/interpret the question any way you like" -- yep that was the idea, Dick ;-) -- HOUSTON] "...I don't think Java, really, has many concerns at all...I clearly want to get the EU thing cleared up, so the ownership transfer can take place and we can basically move forward... Java the platform is pretty solid.. Java the Language, with JavaFX Sun can pretty much do whatever they want which makes for very rapid improvements... and I really like that...every release [of JavaFX] is exponentially better than the last...You don't want that for Java...One company putting whatever they want in, because there are so many people who rely on Java being what it is...so I think we need different solutions for those (2) problems [Java the Platform and Java the Language] ...."

  43. joe Joe Nuxoll: "[my greatest concern]... From a business perspective, it is pretty obvious...the company that owns the entire boat ["boat" being a reference to Java?], is in dire straits and that's gotta get resolved...I agree with Tor...even if Sun caught on fire and burned..disappeared tomorrow...I think the Java is going to be around for a really long time still because there are so many other companies who are invested in it...Java is NOT just one language and a platform... it is a platform that they focusing on trying to get as many languages as they can to solve as many different problems as they have, or that they can think of...last one, technically speaking, about JavaFX...especially with the slip of Java 7 to sometime next year a lot of the cooler things they are going to need [for JavaFX] to be competitive in today's marketplace..they are not going to have modularity [a modular JDK] until then [later] and that's a big deal for competing against Flash...."
    Tor retorts: "...Just to clarify.. JavaFx isn't Java and it doesn't have to run on a pure Java stack, so you could run JavaFX on a phone that doesn't have a Java stack under it...and the next generation graphics stack doesn't have AWT or SWING under it...."

  44. dick Dick Wall: "I'm gonna start upbeat...I think the JVM is in great shape...there are many people who have done great work here... making the JVM ready for multiple languages... Java the language, however, is something that I have been wrestling with a lot recently...for the last (4) years I have been following the news pretty closely...there is some new development work happening all the time, but it is gradually being swamped or just overcome by stuff we've already solved dozens of times...and I think it is because when the language kinda stopped moving so did the problems we were solving with it...so I think that closures which came as a totally surprise to me [here at DEVOXX, referring to Reinhold's announcement] and is a real shot in the arm that will invigorate a lot of stuff. I think we are going to see a lot of libraries...pick it up...we're going to start seeing some new problems being solved with Java the language..."
    Tor Adds: "I think the platform is really what the crown jewels are here, and that's the most important part to push forward....and I don't think you want to do anything too dramatic with Java, that's why I like this closures proposal..seems to find the right balance..."

Also, Geertjan Wielenga did a similar thing by asking a question at DEVOXX, videotaping the results: "One thing from DEVOXX". That video is over at Javalobby and that is also worth checking out... Thanks Geertjan!

Also, I want to thank Philip Hickman, in London, for his services as my file hosting services provider while I was in Antwerp...he's got reasonable prices for online file hosting www.file-hosting-online.com...thanks Philip... and I hope the downloads of these recordings won't break your server...
Published at DZone with permission of its author, sunahouston .

(Note: Opinions expressed in this article and its replies are the opinions of their respective authors and not those of DZone, Inc.)

Comments

Guido Amabili replied on Thu, 2009/12/03 - 6:43am

 

Not being able to implement RIAs on top of the JVM...

It would leave the JVM on the client side in a sad state.

Guido

 

Armin Ehrenreich replied on Thu, 2009/12/03 - 7:31am

I have some big concerns about desktop Java. What will happen to the Netbeans Platform? What will happen to Swing? What will happen to JOGL? What will happen to Java3D?

And no, JavaFX is no solution, at least until now. I have to make platform neutral desktop applications, that are similar to the respective native GUI. I have no use for this Flex like scribblings that do not follow the established GUI guidelines and look different from application to application. This is against the very basic concepts of GUIs. (I also eschew web sites that use Flex for other things than showing movies.) Now somehow the annual hype is about RIA. I hope that this hysteria won't destroy the Java desktop application story completely.

Mike P(Okidoky) replied on Thu, 2009/12/03 - 3:36pm

I'm worried that Linux is going to become a second class citizen. Sure, it'll be supported, but its releases might not be in sync anymore. An example is the failure of JavaFX support for Linux from day one (possibly because media like video on Linux is taboo).

Second thing I'm worried about is that while Sun resisted eroding and convoluting the language, people with clout inside Oracle might be tempted to make it "compete" with C# and other languages, by adding me-too features, and they'll get sloppy. Java might be neat, tidy, and snappy not much longer. We could migrate to Scala, but the masses will not, and the only viable choices is what the masses will go for. Oracle will have an awful lot of control of the masses.

Third thing I'm worried about, and this relates to the second thing. People inside Sun that protected Java and made it work, will now work for Oracle. Will they all stay on board? Will they maintain the vision? Will different people drive Java in different directions?

End of day, if things are done right, all is well. I'm worried things will not be done right.

Antonio Sorrentini replied on Thu, 2009/12/03 - 8:47pm

Desktop, desktop, desktop! It is very sad that the only concerning about JOGL, Java3D, etc. came only in 'Comments' by just one single person. I really have never been able to understand why there is this strong, diffuse and invincible rejection to let Java become really viable for desktop applications and games.

 

 

Dapeng Liu replied on Fri, 2009/12/04 - 1:49am

java has long lost the battle of desktop

other than that i'd say 'please fix the out of perm gen problem'

Armin Ehrenreich replied on Fri, 2009/12/04 - 8:56pm in response to: Dapeng Liu

java has long lost the battle of desktop
But that doesn't have to be the case!

Just some minor adjustments are missing. There is a strong need in industry for portable desktop applications, that can be installed and updated by WebStart. In my experience a much stronger need than yet for another proprietary RIA technology, when all that is needed will be covered by HTML5. If Sun/Oracle would have thrown the enormous resources they put into this JavaFX project in the desktop story, they would have a very credible solution. This would be really needed, just take a look at the few examples featured at NetBeans Zone. Complicated financial apps, satellite mission control, air traffic control, visualization and interpretation of research data.... and, and, and
These things make computing interesting in my opinion. And this would complement very well the server story. Instead of that they choose to compete with Adobe on graphics software!? Something they cannot win in a hundred years, because designers will always use Adobe software instead of coding anything. Or they dream of some interactive TV when TV is a totally passive medium. Why interact with my TV when I have a computer? Sorry, but leave the design of new categories of consumer devices to Steve Jobs.

Dmitri Trembovetski replied on Fri, 2009/12/04 - 12:49pm in response to: Mike P(Okidoky)

>  An example is the failure of JavaFX support for Linux from day one (possibly because media like video on Linux is taboo).

Not sure what you mean. JavaFX 1.2 supports Linux and Solaris, with media:

http://javafx.com/downloads/all.jsp

Dmitri

 

Mike P(Okidoky) replied on Fri, 2009/12/04 - 5:34pm in response to: Dmitri Trembovetski

 Oh my freaking god you're right.

As for Java on the desktop. I do not understand what the problem is. I've used it in just about every job I've had in last 10 years. Swing + Webstart works fine.
I can also perfectly envision Java being used for things like OS control panels, configuration apps.
I really do not understand what people's problems are with Java on the desktop. To me it's a been there done that issue.

Mike P(Okidoky) replied on Fri, 2009/12/04 - 5:29pm

(comment removed)

Armin Ehrenreich replied on Sat, 2009/12/05 - 4:11pm in response to: Mike P(Okidoky)

As for Java on the desktop. I do not understand what the problem is.

Are you kidding? SwingLabs: not supported anymore; Swing Application Framework: on hold; Netbeans Platform: What will Oracle do?; JOGL: cancelled; Java3D: on hold; you can easily go on with this...
This is not exactly inspiring confidence for future projects!
Instead they start a new language for making GUIs. The maturation process starts from the beginning. But JavaFX has no API that is usable from the Java platform which means from Java, Scala, Groovy ect. No you need very a special language to use this API. Who on earth aome up with such an idea? This in the given state of Sun is my greatest concern for Java as many widely used APIs of the Java platform seem to be abandoned

Dimitris Menounos replied on Sat, 2009/12/05 - 1:22pm

I always loved the language, though hated the VM. Patience, version after version. Here we are,15 years later, and the runtime still sucks. It never became lean enough for the client. It will never be,

But I am not concerned at all! Nowdays I only use Java for web applications and I see that on the server side it still has looong way to go. Moreover Google's latest aggresive moves with Android & GWT have liberated the language from its bulky runtime and its stewards.

GeekyCoder coder replied on Sun, 2009/12/06 - 2:24pm

I reckon another concern is the perceived slow progress (or lack of sense of urgency) for JavaFX as compare to the pace of competitors , which I attribute it to current lack of business and monetization for the technology, and Sun's engineer-orientated culture (rather than market-orientated). For business investment , it is important for JavaFX to have a technology roadmap and constant update, otherwise, it is hard to convince management to invest in JavaFX over SilverLight and Flex if those established alternatives can already do the job (and with far more assurance in term of update through blogs and testimony).?

Larry Ellison's farsightedness and business acumen show when he said  "We encourage the OpenOffice group to QUICKLY build their version of a spread sheet or a word app using JavaFX," (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/ellison_javafx_commitment/). Many probably think that Larry  is foolish to waste resource to  rewrite established application in JavaFX (eg the disastrous effort of Java-based Netscape) and when capable Java-based office version already exists (eg ThinkFree). But I believe that is not exactly his point. His point is if JavaFX is capable of writing a sophisticated large application like OpenOffice , it is more than capable of writing any application. OpenOffice is just a benchmark for JavaFX to reach maturity and desired capability. In the same way, Intellij, ThinkFree and many complex Swing-based applications have shown that Swing has reached certain maturity and capability to be considered viable GUI interface technology. Larry understands that "time is the essence of business".  It is also in the interest of Larry to tightly integrate and improve Java technology with their cash-cow products (eg database) to counter Microsoft's offering.

Now, let wait to see if  Oracle acquires Sun, and bring its proven "business" mindset and strong marketing strength  to JavaFx/Java technology.

Mike P(Okidoky) replied on Tue, 2009/12/08 - 12:06pm

As for problems with Java on the desktop again, I think a big part of the problem is people's pessimism, negativity, and misconceptions. Java on the desktop *IS* ok. Swing on Java just works. There are numerous of open source projects that enhance that experience. Jide is one of them for instance.

More often than not, people here are not writing gui applications, or they're not even trying. Nothing but accusations, and no constructive solutions.

Misconceptions about Java being slow or someone "not liking the jvm" just do not know what they're talking about.

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