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Sun's Big Day of Announcements

12.11.2009
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Sun made three big announcements yesterday, covering the release of JavaEE 6, GlassFish v3 and NetBeans 6.8. All three announcements are closely related, but let's go through these one by one. 

Java Enterprise Edition 6 

The most important part of this release for me is the introduction of profiles. The Lightweight Web Profile is probably the aspect that will interest most people as it addresses the requirements of those deployments that don't need the full functionality of JavaEE.  Enterprise JavaBeans (EJB) 3.1 Lite technology has also been added.

You're not limited to this profile. If you're dependent on the entire JavaEE stack you can still take advantage of it. You can expect more profiles to appear in the future, as defined through the JCP.

There are also a number of productivity improvements including the additions of Context and Dependency Injection, the possibility of adding EJBs to your war file without needing additional packagin, and a number of annotations thatmake it simpler to build and embed EJBs.

GlassFish v3

With the announcement of JavaEE 6, we need a reference implementation, which brings us nicely onto GlassFish v3. Using GlassFish will help you take advantages of all the advantages of JavaEE 6. Kevin Schmidt outlines what's new in GlassFish, while John Clingan give us a list of firsts for that GlassFish achieves.

It's a huge release with contributions from across the community, such as EclipseLink from Oracle, the JPA reference implementation. Also, Red Hat delivered the reference implementations for both JSR 303, to standardize a meta-model and API for JavaBean validation and JSR 299, Contexts and Dependency Injection for the Java EE platform.

Find out more about what's available in this release at The Aquarium. 

Netbeans 6.8 

Last, but no means least is the delivery of Netbeans 6.8. If you want developer tooling to take advantage of GlassFish v3 and the new JavaEE 6 features, then Netbeans should be your first stop. 

"With this new NetBeans release, Sun continues its commitment to delivering open source developer tools," said Jim Parkinson, vice president of Developer Products and Programs, Sun Microsystems. "Java EE 6 and GlassFish v3 enable developers to create enterprise applications more easily and with less code, significantly speeding application development and deployment."

Other features provided include:

  • Expanded PHP Support: Expands support of dynamic languages with support for PHP 5.3 and the Symfony framework speeds development of PHP Web applications
  • Tighter Integration with Project Kenai: Project Kenai, a collaborative environment for hosting open-source projects, now delivers full support for JIRA and improved instant messenger and issue tracker integration. For more information visit www.kenai.com.
  • Improved C/C ++ Profiling: Profile and tune C/C++ applications with the new Microstate Accounting indicator and I/O usage monitor
  • JavaFX: Improved code completion, hints and navigation for JavaFX in the NetBeans editor
  • Improved support for JSF 2.0/Facelets, Java Persistence 2.0, EJB 3.1 including using EJBs in Web applications and RESTful Web services, as well as improvements to the NetBeans Platform.

Note that a GlassFish tools for Eclipse bundle exists for those who'd rather stick with Eclipse as their web development IDE. 


 

Comments

Guido Amabili replied on Fri, 2009/12/11 - 11:22am

I installed a Netbeans 6.8 distro with JavaFX support and it's a very good release, fast start up and everything feels snappier!

The Netbeans team did a great job!

Guido

 

 

 

Jilles Van Gurp replied on Fri, 2009/12/11 - 1:56pm

Well, it used to be the case that any of these things would be big news. As it is, most java developers never depended on Netbeans, are not deploying on Glassfish and have probably been using technologies that JEE 6 was inspired by for several years now.

 In short, who actually cares about any of this? I know I don't and I earn my money writing server side Java code (eclipse, tomcat, spring). I think whatever makes it into a Spring release matters more than anything that made it into the JEE 6 spec.

Gregory Strockbine replied on Fri, 2009/12/11 - 3:09pm

I use Netbeans at work for C++ and at home for PHP development. I'm happy to see a new release of Netbeans. - Greg Strockbine

JeffS replied on Fri, 2009/12/11 - 6:18pm

Well I care.  NetBeans is my preferred Java IDE.  In my experience, anything Eclipse can do, NetBeans can do better, easier, faster.  NetBeans has been gaining in market and mindshare, often at the expense of Eclipse, for years now.  

I also think Glassfish is great.  I haven't deployed on it, but have developed on it.  And apparantly Glassfish has seen an uptick of production deployment.  It's OSGi based, fast, and for something that provides such a tremendous amount of functionality out of the box, relatively light on resources.

True, a lot of the stuff now in JEE and Glassfish were originally inspired by Spring.  We all have Spring to thank for getting the Enterprise Java away from the old EJB2/huge app server mentality.  But we've had EJB 3.x for a while now, as well as container lazy loading, as well as gaining huge functionality merely with simple annotations, for years now.  Spring is nice, but I freaking hate all the XML (even though that's improved).  I also hate the kit car feel to it - it seems you have to do a lot of manual wiring to add functionality.  With something like JBoss or Glassfish, a simple annotation will do the trick.

But I do suppose that arrogant, condescending, narrowminded Java developers, who think Spring is the only way, don't care about these great releases.   Oh well, it's their loss.

Reza Rahman replied on Fri, 2009/12/11 - 6:29pm in response to: JeffS

Jeff,

Well said - there is plenty in Java EE 6 that is simply not in Spring. The excellent features in CDI are just a start not to mention JSF 2, JPA 2, JAX-RS, bean validation and yes, EJB 3.1. And because it is an integrated platform that doesn't take the Frankenstein model to development, it is much less configuration/XML heavy. Just look at the fact that JSR 330 is a small subset of JSR 330 and that Spring will inevitably be doing catch-up past Spring 3.0 - just as they did for Java EE 5 in Spring 2.5...

Cheers,
Reza
=================
Author, EJB 3 in Action
Expert group member, Java EE 6 and EJB 3.1
Resin EJB 3.1 Lite Container Developer

JeffS replied on Fri, 2009/12/11 - 6:53pm in response to: Reza Rahman

"Frankenstein model to development"

Very well said.  That is exactly how it feels whenever I use Spring.  Another word that comes to mind is "Jalopy".

 And yes, in JEE, stuff is just really, really well integrated, and configuration is pretty easy.

I'd also like to compliment the book you co-authered (EJB3 In Action).  It's one of the best tech books I've read. 

 

Another point, regarding people caring about these new releases:

 Just a sense of perspective -

SpringSource does about $20-$40 million in revenue a year.

... as compared to ...

The Java EE application server market, which is well over $20 billion (that's billion, not million) a year.

And Glassfish is the Reference Implementation for JEE and JEE application servers.

So, um, yeah, lots of people care.

 

Finally, I'd like to compliment the NetBeans developers.  It just keeps getting better, and better.  I've already downloaded and installed NB 8 on my Ubuntu box.  I was shocked at how fast it started.  NetBeans has been steadily improving startup times.  But this one was really fast - comparable to native apps.  And it still has all the NB goodies, only better.

 

Henk De Boer replied on Sat, 2009/12/12 - 8:15am

Highly impressed by these releases. Java EE 6 and Glassfish v3 truly are an outstanding piece of engineering. This is the second major release in a row that has truly delivered on all fronts. Java EE 5 was great, but this one is even better. If the JCP and its community can continue this pace, Java EE 7 will probably be nothing less than a miracle ;)

I really love the changes made in JSF. Making Facelets the default and including it in the core spec is a really smart move. Simplification of the EJB packaging and not requiring an interface for local calls is surely an improvement for those on smaller projects.

Also, the improved timer service for EJB looks interesting too. I have to look into it some more to see how it stacks up against Quartz (which we're currently using), but from glancing over the specs, it seems that EJB now *finally* has a worthy timer service. EJB3 itself was great, but its timer service was really underwhelming.

I'm also really glad that JNDI names have now been standardized. This was one of the few things I could never really wrap my head around. why... why on earth weren't these standardized before. To me it really seems like one should start with defining those names. Really happy these vendor specific names are a thing of the past now :)

Rainer Eschen replied on Sat, 2009/12/12 - 9:43am

I understand that you chose the products and technologies because you like them. We still have to thank Sun for all the stuff they did in the past. Else we couldn't talk about all this today.

But, you also should be honest to yourself. How important is all this really to the Java enterprise market? The market share tells me something different.

If you only have a look at the "modernized old", that tries to hurry up what the innovators (the really important open source projects) in the community invented years ago, you sure will find always arguments why all this is important. But, all these comparisons follow the "apples and oranges" model. The revenue comparison above is another example of this. When customers have to invest an amount of money to buy tons of those expensive and complex application platforms to be able to start a project and have to invest another bunch of money for consulting it is not a surprise. But, if you have a look at the deployed results and their maintenance you will recognize what you get for your money. I still recognize a better cost-effectiveness with Spring-based architectures.

I think it is pretty arrogant to claim that those who invented DI try to reach what JEE 6 delivers today. All this is pretty ignored by SpringSource if their customers allow this. Maybe the truth is JEE 6 now delivers what we got with Spring 2.0 some years ago.

All these XML critics  is pretty annoying and does not become more true through repetition. Spring has a lot of configuration technologies today and you can select and combine these for what your project needs. Spring means flexibility and a smart grade of integration without using complex deployment infrastructure. Reading about light EJB and profiles is amusing. This is another prove that Spring did it right years ago ;-).

So, why use a bad copy of ideas when I get the original that already delivers add-ons I have to wait for some additional years in the JCP? If you want to read about something really innovative then have a look at

http://blog.rainer.eschen.name/2009/11/13/enterprise-java-in-2010-expect-a-cloudy-spring/

You will recognize that Spring has already completed the platform simplification and now delivers technology to implement the really big deployments combining the most innovative ideas we talk about today. SpringSource still does it with the same focus: simpler and more efficient. But, for Spring users this is no real surprise ;-).

Liam Knox replied on Sat, 2009/12/12 - 6:13pm in response to: JeffS

$20 billion sounds a riduclously over estimated amount. What does that include , Sun's server kit + Oracle databases etc,etc ? May also been down to companys needing support the legacy rubbish old J2EE that was sold as the pure lie of 'simplifying' Java development.

I cant see this news from Sun influencing the millions of developers who have rightly walked away from traditional J2EE, to what is a more flexible, powerfull defacto standard.

JeffS replied on Sat, 2009/12/12 - 6:43pm

Yes, Spring is great, very flexible, relatively lightweight.

Yes, open source is great, and often the source of first innovation. You don't have to sell me on the value of open source.

But I'll also make the point that JEE is open source. Glassfish is free, with the option of support. JBoss is free, with the option of support. Seam is free, with the option of support. Well, you get the idea.

But with the JEE spec, you get everything very well integrated. I never get that same feeling with Spring. "Frankenstein" is it's development model. It just feels like different parts have to be manually wired in, where as with JEE, all the stuff you'll ever need is already there, used/loaded with simple annotations.

From my standpoint, I never want to bag on Spring. Spring is great, and led the way out of the old "heavy and complex" J2EE model. And yes, Spring inspired many of the improvements that have come to JEE.

But from where I sit, JEE/EJB3.x/JSF2 is all simply easier, and I just like it better. That doesn't mean I think Spring is bad and won't use it. It just means I like it better.

I also like having standards. With the JEE stuff, save for proprietary extensions, I can redeploy my stuff with multiple products/vendors. I can also find/work with qualified talent.

I just always feel compelled to come in and defend the great efforts of the JEE engineers at Sun, Red Hat / Jboss, and others, for coming up with these great specs and products, because inevitably, Spring fans come in and try poopoo on all of it whenever there is a new release, saying "Who cares? Spring did that years ago, Spring does that better, Spring is kewler, JEE sucks, Sun sucks".

This happens every time, without fail, with anything to do with JEE standards and specs and releases.

It's kind of comical, really - the fact that Spring fans always feel compelled to do that. Can't Spring fans feel content with liking Spring, and leave it at that? Can't they simply accept that JEE has it's place, and a lot of really smart people work really hard on producing great specs that a lot of people really like?

Whenever there is an announcement for a new Spring release, or new Spring "something", I've never, ever, posted "Who cares?" or "EJB3.x is better" or "Nobody uses that stuff".  I just leave it at that.  If anything, I'll post questions about using it.  I'll take the stnace of "Cool! - new release of a great tech".

Henk De Boer replied on Sat, 2009/12/12 - 6:36pm in response to: Rainer Eschen

When customers have to invest an amount of money to buy tons of those expensive and complex application platforms to be able to start a project.
Expensive application platforms? Honestly, how much did you pay for Glassfish? How much money did Jboss exactly took from you? And how much did Apache charge you? I'm really curious, please let me know.

 

and have to invest another bunch of money for consulting it is not a surprise.
Well, the Java EE book that I bought did set me back a good € 29 to learn about EJB and another € 25 or so to learn about JSF. Basically this was all I needed to start developing a rather large enterprise app. I understand this may be a lot of money for you, but for me this really is peanuts.

 

But, if you have a look at the deployed results and their maintenance you will recognize what you get for your money.
I guess with Java EE it's a pretty good deal. The Java EE JDK is completely free and the deployed results are excellent and maintenance is manageable. Lost time we used Spring we run into all kinds of fuzzy issues. There wasn't really someone on a forum able to help us, so we were directed to: http://www.springsource.com/support/professional-services . Ough! Those services aren't exactly free... Then we started looking into some training: http://www.springsource.com/training/classes/europe quite a lot of courses there... is that all needed to work with Spring? Do these courses really have to be € 1800+? I thought Springsource was there to better the world and rid us from the evils of EJB and the evils of big greedy corporations, but they are asking... MONEY??? Wow! Springsource actually has a monetary incentive to drive people away from Java EE? Now who would have thought that...

 

I think it is pretty arrogant to claim that those who invented DI try to reach what JEE 6 delivers today.
About that... silly me! And I always thought that DI originated somewhere in the 60-ties, you know with the strategy pattern, callbacks, plug-ins and all that. Funny how we already discussed the principles underlying DI when I was in University in the early 90-ties.

My memory must also be playing tricks on me. I vaguely remember some article from a certain Robert Cecil Martin, must have been somewhere around 1995 or so. I think he described something like DI, but of course, he couldn't have done that since surely the Spring guys are the original inventors of that (and everything else). Funny thing is though, the Spring framework is from 2002/2003 and Robert's article is from 1995. Maybe he used a time machine to travel to the future, steal the idea from Spring and go back to 1995 to write his supposedly original article?

 

Maybe the truth is JEE 6 now delivers what we got with Spring 2.0 some years ago.
Interesting... so Spring 2.0 defined everything that's in Java EE 6 some years ago? I'm looking into the documentation, but I can't really find anything akin to the AJAX support offered by JSF 2.0, nor is there a mechanism to support resource serving from UI components. There also doesn't seem to be a type safe criteria API for persistence as in JPA 2.0 and neither can I find anything about asynchronous HTTP execution as in Servlet 3.0.

But maybe I'm just not looking at the right places... It's a moot point anyway, since the mission statement of Java EE is not really about being explicitly innovative. Let projects like Hibernate, Seam, Facelets etc be the inspiration and a breeding pound for new technologies. Let the community first decide what works and what doesn't... and when it eventually is decided that something works, Java EE is there to standardize it and offer a solid spec that everyone can implement.

 

Spring has a lot of configuration technologies today and you can select and combine these for what your project needs.
Again silly me... I thought these configuration directories in Jboss AS, you know, the default, all, web, minimal, etc ones allowed me to do exactly that. I was even under the impression that Glassfish lazily loaded the modules that I actually needed. But according to you only Spring can do that? That's again very strange... maybe those sneaky Jboss guys dumped a Jboss AS version from the future on my HDD. Those bastards!

 

So, why use a bad copy of ideas when I get the original that already delivers add-ons
Wow! You mean everything in CS is really an original idea of Spring? MVC, custom tags, service classes, entities... you name it and Spring originally came up with it? Wow! Did they already got some Nobel price?

There's only one small thing... if everything is so great and wonderful in Spring, then why is that I can never escape the feeling that Spring just patches a bunch of existing open source technologies together, wraps it with some inconsistent interface, calls it their own and then hopes to charge me for consultancy fees? With Java EE 6 I really get the feeling that the platform is a coherent whole, almost as-if written by a single developer. But let me guess... you're probably going to claim that a 'coherent platform/API' is another Spring invention right? Right?

Jacek Furmankiewicz replied on Sat, 2009/12/12 - 7:48pm

Wow, lots of anti-Spring hostility here from some (probable) Sun employees.

Having completed a Spring project (without any consulting, just regular docs) I never had the feeling its a patch of disconnected technologies. Stop spreading FUD.

I think some folks at Sun are bitter cause they're late too the game and have no clue how to eat into Spring's marketshare and mindshare.

Java EE6/Glassfish/NB 6.8 look very promising, but badmouthing a solution that has delivered many successful Java projects is not gonna make it more popular.

Besides, I can't help having the sinking feeling that all this heavy duty investment into NB and Glassfish will disappear once Oracle gets their hands into it. They have BEA, they have JDeveloper. End of story.

So, what I like about Spring/Hibernate/Apache CXF/Jetty is that they are self-sustaining successful projects and don't have to rely on one company to keep them going. Hence that is what we use in production. With lots of success.

Chandra Sekar.S replied on Sun, 2009/12/13 - 5:35am in response to: Jacek Furmankiewicz

While Spring is definitely a innovative product, it is unfair to blame the anti-spring comments. In fact the whole article didn't thrash Spring. But Jilles van Gurp started anti-Java EE 6 comments and invited all the anti-Spring comments. So if anything please blame Jilles van Gurp for the flame invitation.

Just to discuss your point about the mentioned stack being standalone, which production JDK do you run it on? If you'are gonna blame Sun for licensing policies, does that mean you're bitter cause you are too late to the game?

Again I'm not anti-spring but I find spring lovers to be fanatically against Java EE many times. Keep it to yourself, you don't have to come and troll in every Java EE announcement.

Henk De Boer replied on Sun, 2009/12/13 - 7:24am in response to: Jacek Furmankiewicz

Wow, lots of anti-Spring hostility here from some (probable) Sun employees.
I can't speak for the others, but I'm definitely not a Sun employee, nor was I ever one.

 

Having completed a Spring project (without any consulting, just regular docs) I never had the feeling its a patch of disconnected technologies. Stop spreading FUD.
Speaking about the pot and the kettle... isn't spreading FUD -the- weapon Spring fanatics always use? Why is it that each and every announcement of some Java EE technology has always been attacked by a horde of Spring fans? If Spring is so great then can't you guys just enjoy your supposedly superior tech in piece and leave those who actually want to get a job with Java EE done alone?

 

I think some folks at Sun are bitter cause they're late too the game and have no clue how to eat into Spring's marketshare and mindshare.
I think the situation is a little different...

 

Spring once had a point, back in 2002/2003. J2EE was getting out of control, with ridiculous interface requirements and an XML syntax so verbose that only a mother could have loved it (and she hated it). The implementations of those days were large, expensive and most of all closed source. IBM and all what it stood for back then (large, corporation, vendor) was the face of J2EE with Websphere. There were exceptions, like Ironflare's Orion (small European company, small footprint as in only a few MB for the whole thing, startup times of a few seconds and a free download for non-commercial use), but after all it's the exception that proves the rule and the whole landscape looked pretty bleak.

So, Spring came along and argued that EJBs were evil (rightfully so back then), and they argued containers were evil, and that monolithic pieces of software that make up an AS are evil, and that the resource locator pattern was evil (DI should be used), and that big corporations are evil and finally that closed source is evil.

Valid points in 2002 and while the big J2EE vendors were using the traditional commercial channels for communication, Spring started spreading immense amounts of 'propaganda' via the 'open source channels', like blog postings, forums, mailing lists, etc. Put differently, J2EE was the face of the big & evil corporations, while Spring was the savior (for the people, by the people), which only interest was to better the world and rid us poor programmers from the evil that J2EE was.

But then something changed...

Sun became aware of its mistakes. The JCP became aware of its mistakes. A massive simplification effort was started, which ultimately resulted in the much-acclaimed Java EE 5 release. At the same time, free open-source (FOSS) implementations of Java EE were popping up left and right. What was once the domain of the big commercial vendors, rapidly became a commodity. There now is a Jboss AS, a Glassfish, a Geronimo and various others. All free, all open-source, all Java EE 5 and non of them a monolithic whole.

Meanwhile, Spring was getting larger and larger with every release. It also got more and more complex with every release. Developers started complaining. The XML became a huge burden to maintain and the rapid adoption of new features made the platform as a whole feel like a disjunct collection of functionality. It also became more and more clear that the two words Spring had been fighting against from the beginning "container" and "application server", was exactly what Spring had become too.

At the same time Springsource more and more came to foreground as a highly commercial company and Rod Johnson was increasingly being profiled as a very clever businessman instead of the benevolent programmer out there to better the world. In 2008, a huge buzz went through the blogosphere following the license changes and the interpretation that only paying enterprise customers would get certain bug fixes. It went further downhill with Springsource selling a version of Tomcat and started throwing around copyright symbols and phrases like "Please contact your local sales representative".

All-in-all, Spring is yesteryear's champion, unwilling to accept it has long ago been beaten on every front and has itself become the monster for which it originally acquired its fame from for fighting it. Spring fanatics sometimes still fail to see this. In their minds it's still 2003 and EJB2 is still the latest version. Trained for many years, every time they spot the word "EJB" a Pavlov reaction kicks in. As if they were robots (maybe they are?), they start chanting. EJB IS EVIL. EJB IS EVIL. EJB IS EVIL.. But there is no substance anymore, no real arguments. Ask them why and they will only utter some fragmented sentences... "container.... big corporations... evil!!! arrghhh... lightweight! not lightweight! Rod tells us... must... use... SPRING!!!"

Increasingly Spring fanatics have become the laughing stock of our industry. A bunch of bitter old-timers, dazed by the revelations of reality, unwilling, plain unwilling to accept that Java EE really is open source now. Unwilling to accept Java EE is now absolutely free and that all major implementations are completely modular.

 

Oh, dear Spring fanatics, I pity thee

 

 

 

p.s.

Please note that my beef is with the Spring fanatics, who feel the need to bash Java EE at every opportunity with unjust arguments. I'm definitely not saying Spring as an application framework is inherently bad. Yes, I think Java EE is now better, but Spring would still be my choice if for some reason Java EE wasn't available.

ff aaa replied on Sun, 2009/12/13 - 8:09am

to me spring is overrated. yes i used it a lot in the past. it took too long for them to get over java 1.4, xml and over abstraction. and now with osgi crap. they have dependency issues as well (only spring friendly stuff are allowed). Also i trust it is inferior to what is being offered today. And no and i am not a Sun employee.

Jacek Furmankiewicz replied on Sun, 2009/12/13 - 9:25am in response to: Henk De Boer

I am neither a Spring fanatic, not a JavaEE hater. I would be happy to try EE6 out once the Glassfish3 Maven plugin is out. 

But...as I said, I am very concerned Oracle will cut all the resources for NB/GF once it acquires Sun, since it's known for trying to squeeze every possible dollar out of its customer base. And that means gently (or not) pushing all towards BEA.

Until Oracle proves me wrong in the first year or so. we'll stick with a solution that does not depend on the generosity of a single vendor.

 

JeffS replied on Sun, 2009/12/13 - 9:34am in response to: Henk De Boer

Outstanding post Henk de Boer.

That's exactly how I see it. Spring freed us from the burden of J2EE/EJB2.x, and showed us the way to "lightweight" and "POJO", and "DI", and away from big monolithic proprietary, to open source.

But since then, Sun and JCP got it's act together, big time. They have since leap-frogged past Spring, IMHO, with JEE5, and now JEE6.

In the meantime, Spring itself has become a big proprietary (open source, but with proprietary tendencies) container, owned by big corporation (VMWare).

I haven't scene any anti Spring FUD here. I for one have stated that Spring is good, but that it gives me the "Frankenstein" feeling, and that I like JEE better. That is not FUD, that is stating simple preference.

And, oh, I'm not a Sun employee either (thankfully, because I'd be fearing for my future right now). I work for a small software company that does wireless data collection and consulting.

This whole pissing match started with a Spring fanatic posting "Who cares ..." (it was the third or forth post). And on it went.Whenever there is an announcement of new JEE, the Spring fanatics come to rain on the parade, everytime. Just stop it guys. Just be happy with using Spring, and get on with life.

And back to the original article - I really have to give my compliments to all of these new releases. I really like EJB 3.1 (with EJB lite) and JSF 2.0. And Glassfish has become my dev platform of choice. It's just easy to use, and not a pig on resources. Also, NetBeans has been my preferred Java IDE for a while now, and it just keeps getting better and better.

I do hope Oracle keeps up this great development from Sun employees. They'll keep up the JEE stuff, they'll probably keep up Glassfish (it's the reference implementation), but NetBeans is questionable. I just hope they see that NetBeans is getting growing mindshare, and frankly is nicer than JDeveloper.

JeffS replied on Sun, 2009/12/13 - 9:39am in response to: Jacek Furmankiewicz

I share your fears, sort of.

But Oracle has shown to be somewhat benevolent in it's acquisition binge over the last 5 years or so.  Acquired products have, for the most part, received continued support and development.  

"Until Oracle proves me wrong in the first year or so. we'll stick with a solution that does not depend on the generosity of a single vendor."

Well, if you prefer Spring, you're still in that same boat.  You'll still depend on the generosity of a single vendor - VMWare.

 

Jacek Furmankiewicz replied on Sun, 2009/12/13 - 9:42am in response to: JeffS

Not really, we have

Spring - VMWare
Hibernate - RedHat
Apache CXF - Apache
Jetty - Eclipse

Quite a diverse group of best-of-breed providers...

 

 

Dimitris Menounos replied on Sun, 2009/12/13 - 12:10pm

I see a lot of talk about EJB and DI. Maybe people forget that, historically, the design origin of EJB had nothing to do DI. It was all about sucky AOP and crappy ORM on top of horrible JNDI configuration instead. That shows how much Spring design has affected JavaEE. Besides, isn't it true that JEE AOP and DI features are still inferior to what Spring offers?

Anyway, do people still write web applications with JSF on this day and age? I thought server-side ui components were a thing of the past. Talking of the past, do JEE application servers still have to carry the EJB 2 baggage with them?

Henk De Boer replied on Sun, 2009/12/13 - 12:15pm in response to: Dimitris Menounos

Besides, isn't it true that JEE AOP and DI features are still inferior to what Spring offers?
Uhmm... no?

 

Anyway, do people still write web applications with JSF on this day and age?
Well... yes?

 

I thought server-side ui components were a thing of the past.
Thought wrong...

 

Talking of the past, do JEE application servers still have to carry the EJB 2 baggage with them?
No, EJB2 is going to be pruned

Dimitris Menounos replied on Sun, 2009/12/13 - 1:17pm in response to: Henk De Boer

Good to hear. It seems I'll have to take a deeper look at the JEE 6 features. I don't see, however, myself giving up Tomcat/Spring anytime soon.

 

Piero Sartini replied on Sun, 2009/12/13 - 2:26pm in response to: Jacek Furmankiewicz

@Jacek:

It's true that there are many providers of technologies for the Spring ecosystem.. but this is true for the JavaEE world as well.

You talk about Hibernate - but you may also use EclipseLink, DataNucleus, OpenJPA or any other JPA provider. This freedom comes from the JPA spec which is part of JavaEE. Then you mention Jetty, but you should know that you may also use Tomcat, Glassfish, Resin, WAS or any other Servlet container. This is possible because there is the servlet spec, again part of JavaEE.

To make my point: even if you develop on top of the spring framework - the technology still depends on JavaEE. Your argument is that you don't want to rely on one company.. wouldn't it then be smart to rely on a standard with many implementations? If glassfish dies, go with JBoss. If JBoss dies, there are others.

If SpringSource dies.. lets see. The JavaEE parts will still work, but the glue which holds your app together will be unavailable.

Reza Rahman replied on Mon, 2009/12/14 - 10:39am in response to: Jacek Furmankiewicz

Ummm...you are really being a little paranoid here. There are plenty of people who are supporters of Java EE that have nothing to do wioth Sun. You are really fooling yourself if you beleive Spring is end-all-be-all. It hasn't been past Spring 2.0...

Cheers,

Reza

Daniel Haynes replied on Mon, 2009/12/14 - 11:36am

Spring doesn't have to be the be-all-end-all. It already has huge buy in from developers (like me). Why would I change? Spring became popular because J2EE/EJB was broken. That's why people turned to Spring. Spring would have to become broken for me to turn back. It isn't yet, and until it does I have no reason other than to look anywhere other than Spring first to solve my technical problems. It has often saved me alot of time in the past and I no reason to believe that JE66 is going to better it by any significant degree.

Jacek Furmankiewicz replied on Mon, 2009/12/14 - 11:40am in response to: Daniel Haynes

I gotta admit...I found find it hard to go back to coding JDBC without the JdbcTemplate or Hibernate without the Hibernate template.

If JavaEE6 were to gain traction, it would be helpful for something similar to Spring *Template classes to be added (to fix broken or unwieldy APIs), not to mention the Jdbc exception translation....or Spring Security for that matter (although that is a stand-alone module).

JeffS replied on Mon, 2009/12/14 - 12:23pm

"Spring doesn't have to be the be-all-end-all. It already has huge buy in from developers (like me). Why would I change?"

 If it's serving your needs, don't change.  Nobody is telling you otherwise.  But what people are saying is, don't post bad stuff about JEE when there are new spec/product announcements.

 "Spring became popular because J2EE/EJB was broken."

Absolutely true.  And we all owe Rod and friends for pointing us towards a much better development model.  But JEE/EJB is no longer broken - it's been fixed, big time, and greatly polished and enhanced.  And because of this, Spring is looking less attractive and relevant, to me, anyway, particularly for new greenfield apps.

"Spring would have to become broken for me to turn back. It isn't yet, and until it does I have no reason other than to look anywhere other than Spring first to solve my technical problems."

Again, stick with what is working for you, no worries there.  But you would do yourself a big favor by checking out the new JEE6 stuff.  You just might see the advantages of using it in some situations.  Besides, it's fun to check out new tech.  As for me, even though I'm leaning more towards JEE and less so to Spring, I'm still very interested in what's happening with latest Spring tech.  To me, it's all good.

Reza Rahman replied on Mon, 2009/12/14 - 9:17pm in response to: Jacek Furmankiewicz

Jacek, With JPA there really isn't a need for templating, even the SpringSource guys admit that. As to Spring security, most Java EE app servers provide equivalent functionality. I'm not saying JAAS does not have room for improvement, but a lot of security simply cannot be standardized because of the nature of the beast and is best left to vendors. Last but not least, neither Spring security nor Spring JDBC are core to Spring - you can use them in a CDI/EJB based Java EE system. All that being said, I absolutely agree with Jeff...if you are happy with Spring, by all means continue using it. The fact of the matter though, is that Java EE is just as compelling of a stack so dismissing it out of hand is just plain foolish - especially given that Spring is a non-standard technology tightly controlled by a very small number of people. Cheers, Reza

Daniel Haynes replied on Tue, 2009/12/15 - 4:10am in response to: Reza Rahman

I use Spring security and like the fact that I can drop my war anywhere and it will work. More pertinant in my case is that I use external java hosting. Java hosting is expensive and limited in choice. The only real choice being to use tomcat and I don't see that changing any time soon. As for Spring being a 'non-standard' technology, I don't know if you said that as an implied criticism. But I should remind you that there are plenty 'non standard' technologies that provide far better alternatives to what in/or on top of the JDK. Log4j, Jodatime, Quartz.... And off course EJB 1 and 2 were heavily promoted 'standard' technologies for years... As for Spring being 'tightly conrolled by a small number of people'. As far as I am concerned this is a good thing if they continue to do what they have been doing over the last few years. I have no affliation to Spring. If I detect any change in their attitude toward the development of their libraries then I'll start looking elsewhere. Up till now I haven't.

Rainer Eschen replied on Thu, 2010/01/07 - 4:11pm

You can criticize all the Spring people. No problem. But, to hear with each release of the JCP stuff that it is better than what is already available for years should allow some critics ;-).

All who kept J2EE and did the transfer to JEE the hard way had to suffer - I understand this. I myself had to suffer when working with EJB 2.0 at Sun. But, nevertheless what is so cool about the fact that both now are "almost equal" in certain areas.

Frankenstein is a nice picture for Spring. There's one thing that is pretty cool with it: the intersecting welds work and allow us to take the best of breed on the planet - without fear ;-). 

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