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JavaFX: Where's the Application Framework?

10.10.2011
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Reading JavaOne summaries, I completely agree with this paragraph here:

What really bugged me in JavaFX presentations were that they did not give me any reason for me to get excited or interested about JavaFX. They did not show how you could build great looking enterprise applications with JavaFX, did not show components that would make your life so much easier – nor application frameworks for building larger applications without turning your code into a pile of spaghetti. But they did show a game running on multiple mobile devices, including iOS… painfully slowly.

Indeed, where's the application framework? 

JavaFX ultimately has precisely the same problem as Swing: it is simply a widget toolkit, does not provide any help in terms of an application framework, and therefore does not solve the real problems of application development. Modularity on its own (i.e., JDK 8) will not solve this problem and JSR 296 is dead in the water for not providing a window system.

Terence Parr, the ANTLR guy, has tweeted today the only reasonable solution: http://www.antlr.org/wiki/display/~admin/2011/10/09/Report+of+GUI%27s+death+greatly+exaggerated

 

Published at DZone with permission of its author, Wai Ho.

(Note: Opinions expressed in this article and its replies are the opinions of their respective authors and not those of DZone, Inc.)

Comments

Ryan De Laplante replied on Mon, 2011/10/10 - 4:18pm

I thought they provided an end-to-end sample application and source code that shows an enterprise GUI application that uses RESTful web services to talk with a GlassFish back-end. Sure it's not NetBeans Platform, but it might still be helpful. I think there are more Java developers excited about Java FX than not.

Michael Remijan replied on Mon, 2011/10/10 - 4:20pm

After years of hacking in functionality to the HTTP protocal and HTML format which, it is time for these technologies to be retired.  A application framework for JavaFX and a push to "replace" old browser technology would be great.  Imagine a "JavaFX Browser" which acts similar to mobile app stores.  Whenever you click to "browse" a site, the "JavaFX Brower" would automatically download that site's app and execute it.  Of course updates to the app would come automatically too (or maybe notify/prompty you like mobil apps do).  So this is a marriage of JavaFX and WebStart technology.  Best of all you get rid of HTML on the client side and replace it with technology much more substantial.  If anyone remembers the original whitepapers about web 2.0, this is what was talked about, not the HTML/CSS/AJAX technology we have today.

Marko Milicevic replied on Mon, 2011/10/10 - 5:29pm

There needs to be more complex widgets. I think Oracle will be pretty good at evolving a good base set over time, and hopefully we will see something like "JideFX" at some point.

As for a framework, how about Griffon (+groovyFx)?
http://pleasingsoftware.blogspot.com/2011/08/writing-javafx-applications-with.html

Hontvári József... replied on Mon, 2011/10/10 - 5:34pm in response to: Ryan De Laplante

There is indeed a full sample application, with database, application server etc, it is a bit hidden in the samples package. It is a very nice GUI, it shows how a modern app should look. But as I understand that is a read-only application, so it is only 50% of the thing. What I would like to see first is a CRUD+"complex transaction" example application with plain old forms.

Otengi Miloskov replied on Mon, 2011/10/10 - 9:00pm

This people wants from the hand guide them with just 3 keystrokes have a complete enterprise app. hmm, So that's not programming!, Better go with a Visual tool and forget all about the programming deal. JavaFX is a step forward as a GUI API or Framework for Java. Java is at the bottom of the GUI and Client development. But with this JavaFX2 it could get more attention for Client and Gui development. For me is a Giant Step forward what they are doing. I don't see a reason to ask more, you want your framework that with 3 keystrokes you have something up and running?, so code it by your self, they are giving you the Tools, the API , the JVM and all but IMHO this have to be developed by the developers their self. Or as someone said there is already tools that help create frameworks over frameworks as Griffon, Use Griffon and be done with it.

Hontvári József... replied on Tue, 2011/10/11 - 4:02am

In addition to Griffon, there is another project, DataFX, it helps populating tables and lists from various datasources.

Wai Ho replied on Tue, 2011/10/11 - 7:23am

Interesting to me is that the respondents above don't seem to know what an application framework is. Griffon is really not appropriate for something like a framework for an IDE, for example. Only really application frameworks for the desktop are Eclipse and NetBeans.

Edvin Syse replied on Tue, 2011/10/11 - 8:53am

I've written a rather large Eclipse RCP app, later ported it to NetBeans RCP, and then realized that the framework was more in the way than a benefit, even for an IDE-like application. I'm using Pivot right now, but might as well have used JavaFX 2.0, as they are quite similar in many ways. Sure, a nice docking framework is missing from both Pivot and JavaFX 2.0, but for the most part I find I write less code doing stuff myself rather than relying on built in features in an RCP platform. Don't overestimate the need for a do-everything framework, even in a business application!

You can use OSGI or other module systems even if you don't rely on one of these RCP frameworks, or you  can simply be a good programmer and make sure you modulerize your code even if you don't need to adhere to some module system scheme.

Marko Milicevic replied on Tue, 2011/10/11 - 2:33pm

@Wai Your post suggested the need for a JavaFx application framework in the context of "enterprise applications"...

"....They did not show how you could build great looking enterprise applications with JavaFX, did not show components that would make your life so much easier – nor application frameworks for building larger applications without turning your code into a pile of spaghetti...."

For the vast majority of enterprise applications, Griffon seems to be a very nice application framework. Why do you think it's not appropriate?

Even for something like building an IDE i think Griffon could provide appropriate structure, and will likely support runtime modules in the future such as OSGI. To me the only limiting factor is the level of sophistication of available JavaFx UI widgets. That's is not ready yet, but also not a Griffon limitation.

Marko Milicevic replied on Tue, 2011/10/11 - 3:06pm in response to: Marko Milicevic

Btw, looks like Jide is starting to deliver JavaFx components...
http://www.jidesoft.com/blog/2011/10/04/meet-our-first-javafx-component/

Here is a Griffon presentation in the context of enterprise application frameworks.
http://www.slideshare.net/ecspike/enterprise-griffon-final

Otengi Miloskov replied on Wed, 2011/10/12 - 12:53am in response to: Wai Ho

@Wai Ho, It is fine to do an IDE with Griffon, Swing, JavaFX, Qt, wxWidgets, hell even Win32. Really what you want is already a Template GUI framework or IDE framework that you just change something there and that and you have something up and running as I said with 3 keystrokes. Sr. that's not programming, it is just get someone else template and work over it. A GUI Framework as MFC, Qt, Swing, SWT, JavaFX give you the tools to create IDE frameworks as you call them. So of course JavaFX does not have any IDE framework cause it just got out 1 week ago, We have to wait if Netbeans or Eclipse folks port the Eclipse or Netbeans to JavaFX so that way you can have your IDE framework with JavaFX. I dont understand what is the difficult just to create a damn window with a panel and some layouts with a menu and reuse it over and over with your projects. That why many software sucks because those are based on something it was not supposed to be for it, If I create a Image processing software for example I would like to give the best detail and I don't want it looks same as Eclipse, I want my software have its own look and feel. What I reuse is components or API's but not templates.

Wai Ho replied on Thu, 2011/10/13 - 10:32am

Great, so I'm going to go ahead and create my new IDE for my new language on top of Griffon. OK... so I need editor APIs, first of all, for integrating with Griffon's editor support... oops... Griffon doesn't have a concept of editors. Oh well, let's go ahead and create some special kind of projects for opening up multiple files at the same time, e.g., like a Java applicaton project in Eclipse, but then for my own language... oops... Griffon doesn't have project support, while the MVC concept is nice but doesn't provide me nearly the kind of project support that the related API in NetBeans IDE gives me.

In short, Griffon is nice, especially if you like Groovy as your main programming language. But for any real robust large modular application, why would I use something that has way less features than what an RCP offers? And if I use a Swing RCP I have complete control over the look and feel and my application will look exactly as I want.

Marko Milicevic replied on Thu, 2011/10/13 - 12:43pm in response to: Wai Ho

Wai, it would have helped if you titled your post "Where's the IDE frameworks?" And to that i would answer, "just build Eclipse plugin".

Are you familiar with JIDE (http://www.jidesoft.com/)? Check out the demos (including theming), then combine that with Griffon. I would be shocked to find an Enterprise Application that could not be built with relative ease with that combination.

If you are really hung up on a code editor, they even have a component for that...
(http://www.jidesoft.com/products/editor.htm).

Griffon was built precisely for large modular applications. You should give a try before knocking it. And as a bonus your application will likely be a fraction of the size/complexity of an equivalent NetBeans/RPC app.

On the other hand if your problem is to create an IDE for language "X", then creating an Eclipse Plugin (or NetBeans) would be the right approach.

Ahmet E. Karahan replied on Wed, 2012/03/28 - 12:21am in response to: Edvin Syse

You are absolutely right. We share the same experiences.

I strongly agree with your following sentences:

1. Frameworks was more in the way than a benefit.

2. I find I write less code doing stuff myself rather than relying on built in features in an RCP.

3. You can use OSGI or other module systems even if you don't rely on one of these RCP.

 

 

 

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