Groovy will replace the Java language as dominant language

Hey Graeme,

It depends how you count. If Groovy is used together with Java it's a 0.5 for Groovy and 0.5 for Java.

However, applications written with Grails are likely to have no Java code at all, so that's 1 for Groovy and 0 for Java. Given five more years of Groovy and Java evolution - both share the same ecosystem - things could turn out in surprising ways.

Steven

I disagree with you Graeme,

Groovy is the first language  that attracts me since Java itself,

 and you are wrong in saying that we use it with Java, it is more like Java is a part of Groovy, so you do not have to mix as Java code is also Groovy code.

This is a natural extension of Java, and I am sorry but Ruby and Scala's syntax are awful.

So if Groovy convinced ME to start to use it, it will be very popular.

And adding the scripting capabilities is priceless. So Java will live on, but inside Groovy. 

@Serge: some people like the Ruby syntax, others hate it. I like both Ruby and Groovy. It's a metter of personal preferences.

about Groovy replacing Java: I am with Graeme here.

but in the long run, I just don't care. Frameworks are much more important than the language.

For details see my blog post here:

http://codekite.com/general/its-the-framework-not-the-language

Markus

http://www.codekite.com

I think we are indirectly agreeing with each other. My point is that the integration is so seamless that I find myself naturally switching from one to the other. In other words its not a binary choice.

 Ask any Groovy guy we are not in the "Java is dead, a Ruby/Scala/x language is here to kill it" camp. Groovy is currently the only language that allows true polyglot programming without the pain of context switching, its the act of using it together with Java that makes it so powerful.

Indeed Mihai. It is all too easy to get carried away with these things, but we have to remember the broad scope of Java. Also, if you look back at history people were saying in the early days of Java that it was going to replace C++. Yes, it has become the worlds most popular programming language, but replaced C++? no.

There is still plenty of C++ code being written at the OS level, for drivers, real time systems, games, embedded devices etc. Java isn't going to replace it anytime soon (although as the VM gets faster the reasons not to use Java are becoming less prominent), just as Groovy (or any other language of the current trendy languages such as Ruby/Scala/etc) is not going to replace Java.

Having said that it doesn't mean Groovy isn't going to become big (just as Java is big), as I said I believe it will become one of the biggest languages around and bring to halt the exodus of some Java devs to other platforms.

Isn't one of the most fundamentally attractive qualities of Groovy/Grails that they build on the foundation of everything that Java offers, while adding many of the dynamic language benefits people extol from Ruby/Rails, etc?

If I have understood correctly, the person who has invested years in building Java expertise loses little or nothing in a move to Groovy/Grails, but a jump to Ruby/Rails would imply a near-total reset. Similarly with tools and libraries - all your Java stuff just keeps on working.

Maybe "replace" isn't the right verb? Perhaps it is "enhance" or something more positive that incorporates the best of Java's solid foundation and adds valuable new semantics and paradigms?

Totally agree with Graeme. Java is not going away any time soon, not even 5 to 10 years. It really doesn't matter whether it is passing through a political struggle today. 

Ola Bini nailed this one once. The Java Platform will be great with at least 2 kinds of languages: one has to be a systems language, the "low level" language per se. This is the current Java.

The other kind are "Application Languages". This is Groovy, or Scala, or JRuby. 

By the way, congratulations to the Groovy and Grails teams. You're really getting it right.

And yes, I am a Ruby on Rails developer ;-) Doesn't mean I can't like other platforms as well. 

Absolutely correct. To Enhance not To Replace.

Groovy allows you to leverage your existing skills and infrastructure. There is no point to drop off all great staff you already have. 

Java will always hang around like Cold Fusion or Cobol or those old shoes in the back of your closet.  What's exciting is that we are waking up from a 30 period where everything sort of stopped and we are now entering a period where new languages and ideas are being pushed and new languages are being created. 

We all know that there needs to be a better way to make software, and Groovy is a step in that direction.  Software is hard, largely because we are trying to model the real world.

I was in physics class and someone had scratched "physics sucks!" on the desk.  Right beneath it was written, "It's not physics that sucks, it's the world, physics just describes the world."

 As we attempt to describe and actually model the world, programming that's any fun or impactful is very hard, and we have not made much progress since 1968.  Yes, there has been progress, but not the progress that many, such as Alan Kay, had expected. (He blames Microsoft and Visual Basic.)

Currently I am using Groovy at work and JRuby at home, and I like both.  I am like ruby because gem is nice.  Hopefully Grape will be equally as nice.  JRuby seems to bridge both Java and Ruby worlds, and so you have 99% of the Java world and 95% of the Ruby world fused together.  That seems to be a more powerful combination than Java + Groovy.

I also like the idea that ruby does not have "java think".  There's a certain simplicity in the ruby world that's missing from java.  It seems that Groovy got it's inspiration from the python world but also the ruby / rails world.  In my little opinion, the ruby world is the precursor and thus the source.  Groovy is the follower, and the fact that ruby and python have worlds outside the JVM and outside of java think means that there will always be the potential for novel advancements in our field.  What I hate to see is lateral moves (rails, grails, now rhino on rails, etc.)  I hope to see more advancement.  (How about a better HTTP, concurrency advancements, AI in our programs so that they are actually smart...)

I believe we are on the cusp of a big shift and Groovy is on the leading edge, and going in the right direction.  Just keep moving forward!  Don't rewrite the world in Groovy, invent the future, a new world, and use Groovy to advance towards that cause.

My child has doubled it's age last year, I have increased it only by 3%.  In fact, percentage of growth for my age show clear decline since I was born. Assuming that my child will continue it's trend, it will become older than me in 4-5 years. Actually, when I look at it growing and how often clothes has to be changed, I assume that percentage growth can even be bigger in next years, so it should be older than me in 3 or less years. At the same time, I should become younger very soon, as flat growth is a best indication of incoming decline.

Too bad I cannot bet with you big money on "Two to three years from now the performance of dynamic languages like JRuby and Groovy will be equivalent to pure Java code". Two years ago groovy was 300+ times slower than java. Currently it is probably only 180 times slower than java. Indeed it is quite obvious that in 3 years it will be as fast as java. In 10 years, interpretation of x86 assembly code in groovy with be faster than running it natively on cpu.

History repeats itself.

 It was 1993 and C++ was too complex. A lot of people argued that Awk and Perl was the next big thing, because they were dynamic, they had no compilation time and therefore programmers were so much productive. I did some tools in Perl to help me with the real development in C++.

 Guess what. C++ code was still understable a few years later, while Perl script were a big pile of mud.

So I can imagine what will happen with the developers who move into Groovy, Ruby and all those dynamic languages: they will work, but they will grow unmodifyable. If you like scripting languages, maybe your Java code is mess anyway, so the language will not matter.

 But if you really care, you should be using Java.

The only language that at least to me is as dynamic as an scripting language, but as formal as Java is Smalltalk. Actually Smalltalk is a lot less formal than Java, but its syntax is a lot more easier.

 Wouldn't it be easier if we could just write all the code in Java and avoid all the JSP nonsense? I just created that, a framework that allows me to code everything in Java. It is really easy and fun to program in it. Productivity skyrockets.

I'm not really sure I understand what you mean by "dominant". If you mean that it will be the language which will be adopted by most of the existing hard core Java programmers to build their messaging, graphics, SOA, etc. frameworks then I really can't agree with you. If you mean that most of the programmers writing code for the JVM will be using Groovy for some of the time and many will be using Groovy for all their work on the JVM then your position is, at the least, arguable.

I have been involved in the project since a couple of months after it started. It has never been the intention of competing with or supplanting Java. Groovy has always been intended as an adjunct to Java. One sector of the target audience for the language is skilled Java programmers who see how to use Groovy to make their lives easier or to allow their users to extend and configure their programs (unit testing, mocking, rapid prototyping, XML manipulation, building DSLs, etc). However this is only one sector of the audience and only a tiny proportion will do all their JVM programming in Groovy.

The exciting thing about Groovy is that it extends the reach of the JVM. It allows people who do not want to bother with Java to create programs on the JVM using the wonderfully rich set of libraries available on that platform. So people who are happy with VB or PHP are attracted to Groovy because it gives them an environment they are familiar with. In addition, people with no real programming background seem to ba able to become productive in Groovy very quickly (the first mission critical Groovy app deployed was written by a team of actuaries).It is possible that Groovy could become the most widely used programming language on the JVM but if it does it will not be because the number dedicated Java programmers are converted to dedicated Groovy programmers it will be because the range of people writing for the JVM is massively expanded.

This is not a zero sum game. Groovy does not aim to be the biggest fish in a smallish pool it aims to make the pool as large as possible.

It is fine that you don't like Groovy, no problem its a free world. However, this is the first article I have seen (and as I said I disagree with it and it is not the view of the Groovy community) that has stated Groovy is going to replace Java, most of that noise has come from the Ruby/Scala/Erlang/x language camps.

Graeme, I feel I have to respond before this gets out of hand. Does my article say Groovy will replace Java?

I can't believe I have to quote the article on top, but here goes:

Groovy offers joint Java compilation, meaning that .java and .groovy files get compiled at the same time. Java classes can thus extend Groovy classes without a glitch.

As Groovy IDE support improves - which is already decent for IntelliJ - more and more frameworks for Java will be written - at least in part - in Groovy. This is already happening.

As Groovy starts to play an increasing role in software development an increasing number of developers will be touched. Think Grails, think easyb, think of some novel new use of Groovy yourself.

(Grails and easyb built on top of the fact that Groovy integrates so well with Java)

Groovy will become very, very popular is what I'm saying. As such its market share will become so important that it will gradually close in on the Java language. Groovy's perfect integration with Java will probably be the main reason for its popularity.

Steven