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32-bit Java 6 on Mac OS X Snow Leopard

08.24.2009
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It looks like Java developers have one big reason to upgrade to Snow Leopard on their Mac's when it's released this Friday. According to Axel and the blog that he linked to, it looks like we're going to see what lots of Java developers on the Mac have been waiting for.

References
Reference: http://2ality.blogspot.com/2009/08/32bit-java-6-on-mac-os-x-snow-leopard.html

Comments

Mikael Grev replied on Mon, 2009/08/24 - 12:31pm

Wow, I did not expect that.

Cheers,
Mikael

Trevor Leach replied on Mon, 2009/08/24 - 12:43pm

Pease be true. Please be true. Please be true...

Otengi Miloskov replied on Mon, 2009/08/24 - 2:27pm

Finally, I hope Apple continue like this and we see more support for Java on Macs because Objective-c does not cut it, Its ok for IPhone development but for bussiness, Net/Web and multiplatform apps Java is the way to go.

Mike P(Okidoky) replied on Mon, 2009/08/24 - 2:38pm

Apple is secretive, arrogant, unpredictable, dictatorial, and a bunch of other stuff I can't immediately think of. Not good to rely a business on. Not good for a Java developer to rely on. Bad for Java.

Apple is now even rejecting Google's Voice iphone app even though it's not violating their (anal) terms of use agreement. So much for Google's investment of time and money.

These are all reasons why it's better to stay away from the Mac.I don't understand why Sun's employees are flaunting their hostile Macbooks at places like JavaOne. Linux is a *lot* better for development. It's also a lot more hip, and much cooler (the emotional element seems to be very important, but that was clear from day one).

Apple can start to turn around their lousy perception by showing some respect and commitment we can count on, and do something about their transparency and openess.

Erik Post replied on Mon, 2009/08/24 - 6:21pm

@Mike P: I couldnt agree more. I've been using Mac OS X (my music composition and recording platform of necessity) for development and everything else for the past few months, because I was getting tired of the dual booting and Mac OS refusing to play nicely with Linux filesystems, etc. But for development, I find Linux/KDE to be much better; it's faster, you get Konqueror instead of Finder and, oh yeah, Java SE 6!  Apple's secrecy and retarded PR piss me off to no end. I need to run stuff on 32-bit Macs, they could have at least had the decency to announce their intentions wrt Java. 

 

Otengi Miloskov replied on Mon, 2009/08/24 - 7:07pm in response to: Erik Post

@eriksensei,@Mike I agree that Apple is arrogant and a shit company but its getting an important platform and we need Java support there.

@eriksensei, Im using Ubuntu/Gnome but with KDE the GUI of Java with Swing or even SWT sucks, its because the gtk-qt-engine or do you know why or how to put beautiful Java GUI's on KDE. On Gnome there is not that problem even Firefox looks great maybe because they use GTK native toolkit but there should be a way to fix this?.

Regards.

Erik Post replied on Mon, 2009/08/24 - 7:31pm

@OtengiM: Well there's the JGoodies Plastik theme. To say it's 'beautiful' would be a bit of a stretch, but it kind of looks like KDE 3.x if you squint. Otherwise, Substance is pretty cool, but as far as looking native, hm, tough one I'm afraid... I wouldn't go as far as to call Apple a 'shit company' by the way. (Just somewhat irritating. ;) )

Armin Ehrenreich replied on Tue, 2009/08/25 - 2:41am in response to: Erik Post

Apple developed a whole new kind of platform (that everyone and his dog now tries to imitate) with the iPhone and its SDK. So they needed all available developers for their internal stuff. Above all they are switching to 64 bit, look at the mess MS has with this switch. And they don't announce intentions because then they are open to last minute changes in the master plan, if something does not work as expected, one might not agree with that, but in my view its a valid opinion. No need to comment a enjoyable message (for Java) solely with cynical "Linux is better" paroles. Just look at all those broken promises of MS or Sun. You think this is any better and less arrogant? Are you, for example able to tell what Sun will do with Swing or Java3D? And these APIs make a living for quite a number of developers. Did Sun have the "decency to announce their intentions" with Swings future or Java7 open licensing or many other things? I for my part like Macs and I am glad on the message that the latest JDK is now available on the Mac. Thanks Apple. (I also like Linux, but more as a server platform)

Anthony Goubard replied on Tue, 2009/08/25 - 5:41am

That's especially good for applets.

As Safari is 32 bits all applets where started with Java 5 on Mac OS X even for a 64 bits platform.

I can imagine that the JavaFX team will be pleased with it as in the long term they won't need to maintain Java 5 support.

Johan Compagner replied on Tue, 2009/08/25 - 6:05am in response to: Armin Ehrenreich

what mess did MS do with the switch to 64 bit?? Please explain because i haven't noticed any mess and i have used Vista64 bit for some time until the first 64bit beta1 of Windows 7 (now RC waiting for the final). And i never had really problems, except that some specific software that needs device driver stuff had to make 64 bit clients and that toke a while, but thats not MS's problem.

In java having a 64 bit vm there is that problem that you also then NEED 64 bit native code (not so on the os level). And yes eclipse is i guess one of the biggest java applications with native code portions (swt/filesystem and so on). I think if you take eclipse/rcp out of the picture for a moment then only having a 64bit jvm is for most people not really a problem.

Mike P(Okidoky) replied on Tue, 2009/08/25 - 9:03am in response to: Armin Ehrenreich

> they needed all available developers for their internal stuff.

So Java and us, aren't a priority then. Who know how's they'll let us down next. Java 7 is coming out soon. Forget about that for Mac for eons to come, when they feel like it. After all "noone uses Java anymore, it's a slow pig" Steve puts it something like that.

> cynical "Linux is better" paroles

But Linux *is* better for Java development and Java use than a Mac.

> broken promises of MS or Sun.

I don't care about MS, after their $1+B fine they backed off.
Sun is very good on Linux except for JavaFX, where they *have* been misleading us and *did* break their promises. I predicted that the moment I knew JavaFX had video, which is taboo on Linux for anything commercial. Came true.

> tell what Sun will do with Swing or Java3D?

Swing has been idle for eons. For 3D people use JOGL, mostly. Java3D (I think) has never been relevant. Sun has done great work, enthousiastically, and reliably, in an open and transparent way for where we needed them to be transparent and open. They even open sourced Java. Sun is a far more friendly and dependable company than Apple is. From the perspective of a Java developer, Apple is a dictator that might turn against you at any time.

> I for my part like Mac

Of course you do. You own a Mac, and you want it to work. Don't be blinded by its shiny cover. Java is a second rate citizen on it, always has been, always will be.

 

Erik Post replied on Tue, 2009/08/25 - 11:27am

@Armin Ehrenreich:

> And they don't announce intentions because then they are open to last minute
> changes in the master plan

I'm interested in their intentions. They're like contracts, except I don't get to sue their behinds off if for some reason things turn out otherwise. Also see trust, community building, etc.

> Just look at all those broken promises of MS or Sun

As fortune would have it, I do extensive Swing development, mostly on Mac OS X atm, and I can assure you there is no need to point out the braindead and infuriating decisions Sun has made wrt Swing (among others). They're notorious that way I suppose. And yes, it's sad and it makes our day to day work quite painful at times. That being said, they've never charged me for downloading the JDK and while I disagree with many of their decisions, they *are* providing us with a hell of a lot of cool things for free; the JVM, to name one. I hope that, somehow, Oracle will inject some common sense into some of Sun's decisions (while keeping things mostly free* ;) ).

> No need to comment a enjoyable message (for Java) solely with cynical "Linux is better" paroles.

If I hadn't felt the need I wouldn't have commented. I'm also not saying "Linux is better", otherwise I wouldn't have been running Mac OS X to begin with. Linux is great though, especially for Java development. If that's cynicism, I guess I'm a cynical guy. I'm not the boss of you though, so you're welcome to keep it off your desktop if you want.

As for Microsoft: let's not even go there.

*) Yes, I'm Dutch.

Armin Ehrenreich replied on Tue, 2009/08/25 - 12:34pm in response to: Mike P(Okidoky)

So Java and us, aren't a priority then.

No, Java is for sure no "priority" for Apple. Apple is a desktop company and Java is not very widely used on the desktop. But I am sure that there will always be a Java for MacOSX. Their iTunes web store runs on Java. They are always hiring Java developers.

I personally think that the bad performance of Sun at the desktop and with backwards compatibility of new versions, in opposite to what Sun proclaimed years ago, let Apple loose interest and concentrate on their Cocoa.

And don't take the marketing blah, blah of S. Jobs too serious. When he said that Java is a "ball and chain" he was asked by a reporter why his shiny new iPhone has no Java. What would you answer when would need to sell the brand new gadget?

Linux *is* better for Java development and Java use than a Mac

If you mean at the server side you are for sure right. It is much cheaper and more up to date to use Linux. At the desktop you would have to explain why the experience of, lets say, Netbeans development is better on Linux than on Mac. I really cannot see this.

Swing has been idle for eons.

Yes, but this is in sharp contrast to what has been proclaimed. Swing is dismantled in slices. And it has been the most widespread GUI technology in use. If a customer that needs a thick client asks you today what Java desktop technology you would suggest for the next project. What would you answer?

For 3D people use JOGL, mostly. Java3D (I think) has never been relevant.

But JOGL is very low level. If you need to visualize complex data, the scenegraph of Java3D was perfect. It died quitely and without explanations. Too bad for people like me with much Swing code and Java3D data visualizations. What to do in the future? Use Swing or SWT? Wait for this JavaFX to mature? (With the problem that I do not like JavaFX at all) Write native GUI code? To allege that Sun is open talking is not correct. Yes, they blog all the time but they are too murky and chaotic to be "transparent". What to believe, what not. With Apple you know, what they publish, they take seriously.

They even open sourced Java. Sun is a far more friendly and dependable company than Apple is.

Oh, maybe I missed it, is there already a JSR for Java7. Have they meanwhile given up to hamper the Harmony project by blocking the test kits? If you write Cocoa applications then Apple is very dependable, if you write Java apps you are very happy to hear that a cool platform with 5-10% market share has an up to date JDK preinstalled.

Of course you do. You own a Mac, and you want it to work. Don't be blinded by its shiny cover. Java is a second rate citizen on it, always has been, always will be.

I own a Linux desktop with a Windows partition (for testing and gaming) and Mac laptop. The PC desktop has the shiniest cover because I build the machine myself (and therefore choose the coolest case). But I must admit that neither on Linux nor on Windows the Java environment is nearly as well integrated in the desktop as on MacOSX. How you define "second class citizen" is hard to understand.

Yes, Apple froze the Java bridge to Cocoa, but mainly because no one used it (and for technical reasons, they introduced data binding in Cocoa). It is much better to use Objective-C for Cocoa development. But they are providing a full featured JDK. What should they add to become a "first class citizen"?

If you say that Java6 took too long on the Mac, than look how long IBM took to have Java6 available on their platforms. They were not much faster and Java is for sure very important for them. Java5 on the Mac had many of the Java6 features on Windows (desktop integrations, Swing enhancements) so the lack of Java6 was not too serious.

Armin Ehrenreich replied on Tue, 2009/08/25 - 11:57am in response to: Erik Post

Linux is great though, especially for Java development. If that's cynicism, I guess I'm a cynical guy.

Its not cynicism of course to use Linux, but that many of the comments mechanically state that Apple is bad for Java, arrogant and whatever and Linux is better anyway. This is the point I wanted to comment. Because I think that is is not true and only is a social "recognition code" that occupies so much space on the internet

Mac have 5-10% market share and have the best Java integration in the desktop. So I would have expected more positive comments. Apple is not much slower in providing new versions than lets say IBM

Developer Dude replied on Tue, 2009/08/25 - 2:42pm

Good news, but I am not overjoyed. I use OSX for development and I think as a development workstation it has Linux and Windows beat by a mile. But I target Linux mostly for server code (how many enterprise server farms run on OSX Server? not many) and Windows mostly for client, OSX clients as an afterthought (used to be primary client when writing PrePress apps). That is not my choice, but that of the market.

I am not going to get any further into the religious wars about which platform is the best Java platform - it depends on your needs and tastes. I prefer OSX for my workstation because I can concentrate on my work and not on the platform, and I can run the targets inside VMs regardless of what they are. YMMV.

I agree that Apple needs to give more attention to Java devs if they want to make inroads into the enterprise market (and they do), rather than treating us as an afterthought. The whole thing of 'staying flexible' until the last minute doesn't wash there either; I can see not making exact commitments about when some particular Java version support will be out, but totally keeping us in the dark doesn't make us very confident in the platform or Apple, and it wouldn't hurt to throw us a bone every once in a while with regards to intentions.

Intentions, road maps, future directions, that kind of stuff doesn't have to be milestones met on a given date, but can be general ideas of what is going to happen sometime in the future and can go a long ways towards giving us the warm fuzzies. Otherwise we feel we've been left out in the cold with the occasional bone thrown to us - or not.

Are you listening Apple? Developers have a voice in enterprise computer purchases, sometimes a very big voice. Want to make inroads here? Listen to us. Keep us informed

Will it happen? I doubt it - at least not in the near future. Every indicator is that we are a very low priority in the mind of Apple - but they are still better than Microsoft who treats us like we are infidels/heretics/anathema/non-existant at worst, misguided individuals who need to be shown the true way at best. Doesn't excuse Apple though - they are concentrating on other stuff, but they aren't a fly by night outfit either and they can surely afford to give us a little attention now and then. Oh, and no Apple, I am not going to convert to Objective C any more than I am going to convert to C# - I write business apps, not multimedia OSX only apps. Get over it.

Clowns to the left, jokers to the right - sucks to be us. :-D

Dan Dyer replied on Tue, 2009/08/25 - 4:01pm

I'd like to believe that this is true.  The original blog posting is a couple of months old and doesn't indicate where they got this information from.  I guess we'll find out for certain soon enough.

Erik Post replied on Tue, 2009/08/25 - 5:19pm

 

@Armin Ehrenreich:

> It is much cheaper and more up to date to use Linux

... on the server, as well as on the desktop. Good point!

> At the desktop you would have to explain why the experience of, lets say,
> Netbeans development is better on Linux than on Mac.

Again: it's faster, more open, and you get Konqueror plus the rest of KDE. That's not to say Mac OS doesn't have its own set of niceties. However, this is my personal preference, with which you are welcome to disagree however strongly you like. 

> I really cannot see this. I think that is is not true and only is a
> social "recognition code" that occupies so much space on the internet

I own multiple macs, on some of which I go through the very significant extra hassle of running Linux. Are you suggesting that just because you prefer your NetBeans on Mac, I must therefore be doing this for the sole reason of impressing some random people on the internet that I don't even know? Excuse me sir, I have many faults, but that is not one of them.

Rhys Keepence replied on Thu, 2009/08/27 - 3:07pm

Sorry, but the only JVM is java-6 64 bit. No 32 and no java-5 (it's symlinked to java-6). But, I do a lot of Java (unfortunately), and the only time this has been a problem is with GWT. And OOPHM is better than the native client anyway.
$ java -version
java version "1.6.0_15"
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_15-b03-219)
Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 14.1-b02-90, mixed mode)

$ ls -la /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.framework/Versions/
total 48
drwxr-xr-x  11 root  wheel  374 15 Aug 19:58 .
drwxr-xr-x  11 root  wheel  374 15 Aug 19:58 ..
lrwxr-xr-x   1 root  wheel   10 15 Aug 19:58 1.5 -> CurrentJDK
lrwxr-xr-x   1 root  wheel   10 15 Aug 19:58 1.5.0 -> CurrentJDK
lrwxr-xr-x   1 root  wheel    5 15 Aug 19:58 1.6 -> 1.6.0
drwxr-xr-x   7 root  wheel  238 15 Aug 19:58 1.6.0
lrwxr-xr-x   1 root  wheel    3 15 Aug 19:58 CurrentJDK -> 1.6

Jeff Williams replied on Fri, 2009/08/28 - 6:22pm

Calling Linux equal to OS X for java development is ludicrous. Firstly, start up your IDE + plus appserver + database + browser + mail client. Linux slows to a crawl. As a single tasking server or embedded device, it rocks. If you think it's even close to OS X, you're on crack. Now, here's a little experiment for you. Take your whole source tree and copy it to your system via a USB external drive. Do a too and from copy, and watch how you can nearly not even use another application. Linux's multithreaded disk writing is pretty much non-existent. This whole crap about how great Linux is as a development platform is just stupid, perpetuated by people use it and find the whiz-bang aspect of it all encompassing....to the point that they take leave of their senses. OS X will take any Linux system down on equivalent hardware. I'll stake anything on that claim. If you believe otherwise, you're either ignorant or simply foolish.

Dan Dyer replied on Sat, 2009/08/29 - 6:59am

I asked on Stack Overflow/Super User whether anybody with a 32-bit Mac could confirm or deny the presence of Java 6 in Snow Leopard.  It seems that 32-bit Java 6 is available (http://superuser.com/questions/31526/does-snow-leopard-provide-java-6-for-32-bit-machines).

Mike P(Okidoky) replied on Tue, 2009/09/08 - 10:41pm in response to: Jeff Williams

I have not experienced these types of "inadequacies" with Linux at all ever since it's been my main platform since the 90's.

Until you substantiate your claims with some credible benchmarks, we shall classify them as fanboy propaganda.

 

Sobree Maenchi replied on Wed, 2009/11/04 - 10:55pm

fortunately if Leopard really launch Java6 for 32-bit, coz at this time i'm using Soilate Open JDK it's sound OK. but need a bit config the extension file via terminal carefully..

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